A journey through the complexity of former Yugoslavia
By Frank Shouldice
Agnostic Yugoslavs suddenly became Catholic Croatians, Orthodox Serbs or Bosnian Moslems. These differences were masterfully exploited by political leaders clinging to nationalist agendas – most especially by Milosevic in Serbia and Franco Tudjman in Croatia.
The train that flits through the backwaters of northern Serbia is quaint but functional. Running twice a day it chugs along a single track for 40 kilometres to connect the Serbian city of Subotica with the city of Szeged in Hungary.
The engine and carriage operate as one so the train feels more like a bus. Our driver sits hunched over controls at the front, peering into the baleful night while wipers squeak across his windscreen. A conductor finishes checking tickets and sits alongside the driver, the draughty interior of the carriage gloomy under low wattage lighting.
At Horgos the Serbian border guard is mildly curious about seeing an Irish passport. It’s rare enough to find anyone far-flung on such a local line but he stamps it and hands it back without a fuss. Northern Serbia is not exactly a magnet for tourism but EU nationals no longer need a visa to go there.
The conductor removes a wad of notes from his jacket pocket and counts the takings into separate currencies — Serbian dinar and Hungarian florint. The driver gives up on the wipers so all that’s left is a howling wind and the heavy percussion of rain. He knows many of his passengers by name, making random stops in the middle of nowhere to let people off. It’s the Balkan rail equivalent of the Lough Swilly bus.
We reach Subotica in the Serbian province of Vojvodina. Among 27 different ethnic groupings here is a large ethnic Hungarian population. Thousands fled back across the border during Yugoslavia’s civil war, fearing an influx of Serbian refugees from Bosnia and Croatia. Generally however it’s relatively harmonious and in some ways Vojvodina offers rare evidence that former President Josep Broz Tito’s dream for Yugoslavia might have lasted.
But of course it did not.
The federation Tito nurtured now comprises seven states – Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and, most recently, Kosovo. Convulsions that started in May 1991, when the first shots rang out in Vukovar (now part of Croatia), continue to rumble and simmer, most particularly between Kosovar Serbs and Albanians.
“Once upon a time there was a country and its capital was Belgrade”, runs the opening line of Emir Kusturica’s ‘Underground’, a magnificent dirge to former Yugoslavia. The Sarajevo-born film-maker weaves a mesmerising tale that captures the complex tragedy that is the Balkans. “With pain, sorrow and joy we shall remember our country”, concludes the narrator, a Belgrade zookeeper. “As we tell our children stories that start like fairytales — Once upon a time there was a country – this story has no end”.
There is indeed a circularity about history in these parts. Following Tito’s death in 1980, the charismatic leader was buried in a white-marble mausoleum named ‘Kuca Cveka’ (House of Flowers). The memorial is located on Bulevar Mira, a couple of miles from Belgrade city centre. On a visit in 1988 I joined a steady procession of visitors to the mansion — a cross between the Whitehouse and Graceland — paying tribute to the man whose 35-year reign made Yugoslavia a unique but imperfect success.
Tito’s successor Slobodan Milosevic, a Serb nationalist, later took up residence on Bulevar Mira. For privacy he built a high wall between the house and the mausoleum. The former museum was cut off from the people and most of the artefacts simply disappeared. It was an audacious gesture witnessed with mute public disapproval. Milosevic and his wife Mira acted more like Yugoslav royalty, occupying a mansion high on the hill while Tito’s faithful made pilgrimages to a lower altitude.
By the late 1990s the writing was on the wall for Milosevic. Through his 13-year reign he played a key role in sparking the disastrous civil war that ultimately brought Yugoslavia to an end. Reviving his lost pursuit for Greater Serbia he turned his attention to subduing ethnic Albanian separatists in Serbia’s southern province.
NATO responded to Serbia’s policy of aggression in Kosovo by bombing Belgrade in 1999. Key offices, such as the Department of the Interior, Secret Police HQ and the national broadcaster, RTS, were surgically targeted during 78 days of bombardment. Eleven years later many of these vast buildings still totter precariously in downtown Belgrade, fenced-off reminders of the power beyond these borders.
Visitors to ‘Kuca Cveka’ today will notice how few people still attend the mausoleum. Put it down to despondency or disillusionment but it’s not the shrine it used to be. Tito’s resting place went unscathed when the presidential mansion took a direct NATO hit but the adjacent gardens are full of weeds and a dry fountain peels in rust. It’s as though Tito’s dream died with him. While there is a degree of anger that the partisan hero failed to ensure stable succession the most pervasive feeling is regret for a bygone era that Serbs — and ex-Yugoslavs in general — realise will never be achieved again.
Irrespective of origin, many citizens are still shocked at how quickly Yugoslavia tore itself apart. They recall how questions previously unasked — such as ethnicity or religious beliefs – suddenly became defining identities. Agnostic Yugoslavs suddenly became Catholic Croatians, Orthodox Serbs or Bosnian Moslems. These differences were masterfully exploited by political leaders clinging to nationalist agendas – most especially by Milosevic in Serbia and Franco Tudjman in Croatia. Balkan unity, capricious at the best of times, was doomed.
Such was the inspiration for Nobel Prize-winning author Ivo Andric. He based ‘The Bridge on the Drina’ on conflict between Moslems and Christians in the mountainous Bosnian village of Visegrad. Published in 1945 the Andric classic centres on events at the magnificent 11-arch bridge built by the Ottomans in 1577.
At this beautiful idyll it is difficult to imagine that 47 years after the book was published Bosnian Serb forces murdered an estimated 3,000 Bosniaks around Visegrad, many of them shot on the bridge and thrown into the river below. It says much that the stone bridge – a dedicated world heritage site — now divides the two communities completely.
While post-war relations stall in places like Visegrad, reconciliation stirs to life elsewhere. In November Serbian President Boris Tadic visited Vukovar with his Croatian counterpart Ivo Josipovic to formally apologise to Croatians who suffered during the war. “I came here to share words of apology; to express our sympathy; to create the possibility for Serbs and Croats, Serbia and Croatia, to turn a new page in history”, said Tadic at a wreath-laying ceremony.
As the largest ethnic bloc involved across three conflicts, few will dispute that Serbian forces committed a greater proportion of wartime atrocities. More recent events – such as October’s attack on a gay march in Belgrade and serious rioting by ultra-nationalist Serbian fans at a soccer match in Italy — reinforce that notoriety.
In the West the received wisdom was that Serbs started the war, lost heavily and got what they deserved. Among a litany of acts the destruction of Vukovar (1991), the Bosnian Serb siege of Sarajevo (1992-96), mass murder of some 8,000 Bosnian Moslems at Srebrenica (1995), widespread persecution and expulsion of Kosovar Albanians (1998-99) ensured post-war Serbia would be seen as the villain of the piece.
Yet ordinary Serbs do not look back on civil war with more remorse than any other ethnic grouping. Many are highly critical of the route Milosevic took them, a road to penury and isolation, but feel the culpability of others is often overlooked.
They are a proud people who typically face adversity with a blend of stoicism, stubbornness, chauvinism, fatalism and defiance salted in black humour. The outside world has long seemed a faraway place but Serbs will counter with a trademark shrug, suggesting that the outside world has let them down before.
They point out how it is forgotten that while many Croats sided with Germany in World War Two, Serb partisans – led by the Croatian-born Tito — resisted the Nazis. They ask why the Allies bombed Belgrade at the end of the war when the Germans were already evacuating.
Decades later they feel the EU was too quick to recognise independence for Slovenia and Croatia, thereby accelerating the break-up of Yugoslavia. More recently, they question why so many EU member states immediately recognised Kosovo even though its legal status was far from certain and the fate of over 100,000 Kosovar Serbs unresolved.
While the aftermath of such a brutal conflict leaves a prevailing sense of numbness, many war victims would welcome apology from their erstwhile oppressors. However, for hundreds of thousands of Bosnians, Croats, Kosovars — and Serbs — any offer of contrition comes too late.
Branco, a 45-year-old Serb waiter in Novi Sad – a picturesque Danube city 70 kilometres from Belgrade — considers it all with a nonchalance characteristic to these parts. Formerly a successful restaurateur in Zagreb, he fled the Croatian capital when war broke out and joined the Serbian army. When war ended he could not go back to Zagreb. Eight years ago he arrived in Novi Sad as a refugee, along with his wife and children. As the second largest city in Serbia (after Belgrade) Novi Sad was heavily bombed by NATO in 1999, destroying the oil refinery and the city’s three bridges (since rebuilt) across the Danube.
“I owned three restaurants before the war and now I am a waiter”, he nods. “Sometimes someone will ask me, why did you come to Novi Sad. I mean, where else were we going to go?” He does not like the term refugee and objects to being described as one although his family now shares an apartment with two other families. “During the war we had five Deutschmarks a month to live on”, recalls Branco. “But we did it. And now, here? It’s, it’s — well, we are living”.
The same experience is replicated in every acre of former Yugoslavia where talk, invariably, returns to war. Even so, each part of the former republic is moving in separate directions. Slovenia is the only EU member; Croatia is not so far behind but first must sort out border disagreements with Slovenia; EU-applicant Macedonia is very sensitive to events in neighbouring Albania; Bosnia-Herzegovina remains ruptured between different factions; Montenegro, with a population of 600,000, is only four years old and half the countries in the world don’t even recognise Kosovo. Which leaves Serbia, with more than seven million citizens, a rump state forged uncertainly from the ashes.
As with much of former Yugoslavia, Serbia’s recent history is a story of extreme violence. The state is accused of being tardy in handing over indicted army commanders — like Bosnian-Serb General Ratko Mladic — to The Hague. Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic was assassinated in Belgrade in 2003, local warlord Arkan was shot dead at the Intercontinental Hotel three years earlier.
In the last days of the old regime. anti-Milosevic rallies were brutally repressed in Belgrade. In fact it took a mass demonstration at parliament buildings in 2000 to oust Milosevic after he tried to rig presidential elections.
In 2006 Milosevic reportedly died of natural causes in Scheveningen Prison. Prior to his death the ex-President’s trial for war crimes at The Hague was televised live every day by B92 TV station, but most Serbs, including those who had no time for him, felt the trial was a charade. In the captive Milosevic they saw the very man they ousted defending the ailing country they love to an international court they didn’t believe in.
His legacy continues to be played out. Governance in Belgrade is a precarious authority, presently held by the Coalition for European Serbia led by President Tadic. In two decades the country has grappled with economic collapse, blockades, food shortages, refugees, bombardment and the fiefdom of organised crime. Income in parts of former Yugoslavia used to compare with income in parts of Italy but average gross salary in Serbia is now about €7,000 per annum and unemployment stands at 19 percent.
Like the Milosevic trial which never reached a verdict, ex-Yugoslavia is unfinished business. Kosovo’s independence was upheld by the International Court of Justice last July. Despite that decision the matter of statehood is not clear-cut. 71 nations (including Ireland) formally recognise Kosovo but for various reasons many others, including Russia, China, India, Spain, Brazil, Argentina, Greece — and, of course, Serbia – do not.
With Kosovo’s population hovering around two million, some 100,000 Serbs remain in NATO-policed enclaves. It is widely seen that formally letting Kosovo go is the main carrot to advance Serbia’s EU membership. On taking office however Tadic took an oath pledging “to be committed to preservation of Kosovo and Metohija within the Republic of Serbia”. Should forsaking Kosovo be a pre-condition to EU accession some of his coalition partners might decide that European Union is something Serbia can do without.

I just to know how recognizing Kosovo can be a precondition for joining the EU, when not all EU states have recognized Kosovo.
“Should forsaking Kosovo be a pre-condition to EU accession some of his coalition partners might decide that European Union is something Serbia can do without.”
I don’t think so, Mr. Shouldice. Mark my words. Not going to happen.
If Eu was thriving now maybe there would be more desire to join however as evidence shows
in a number of EU countries the economy has made life difficult regardlessy where you live.
Kosovo recognition should never be a precondition for EU since 5 EU countries don’t recognize
it either why should Serbia have to , after all its part of Serbia’s territorial integrity and no country had to give up 15% of its land to join the EU.
Dear Frank, I find it utterly insulting to put Croatian president Tudjman side by side with Serbian president Milosevic. As you have said, Milosevic had one main goal: to form a Great Serbia. In order to do so, Serbian army tried to invade and occupy Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia&Hercegovina. But since Slovenia was without significant population of Serbs, he concentrated his armed forces in Croatia and Bosnia&Hercegovina. It was that simple.
As the president of invaded and occupied country Tudjman did what every president in the world would have done. He tried to liberate it. And he did that four years later, in 1995.
For whole 5 years Croatia was torn apart. Divided in two parts with so called Serbian krajina, Croatia’s north had almost no transport connection with the south. Croatia sheltered almost a million refugees that fled from territory occupied by Serbs. From that occupied territory Serbian forces bombed and rocketted Croatian towns on a daily basis. They killed more than 20.000 people.
And here you are, telling Tudjman was a nationalist just like Milosevic. I mean, Frank, honestly, what would you do if that was your country/or maybe even your town? Would you stand silent, with your legs and armes crossed, and just wait to see what will happen.
If I remember correctly, the whole democratic world was acting in unity when it was necessary to stop Hitler and the Nazis. 40 years later we could still see war movies with Germans as bad guys, and Americans as good guys.
How come Tudjman and Croatia don’t deserve the same? Croatia was just defending itself from Serbian agression. Croatian army never set a foot on Serbian soil, while Serbia was sending tens of thousands of people and armery to Croatia. For five bloody years.
It’ just not right. I’m sorry Frank, but You are not being fair…
Nelson Mandela is a Nobel prize winner for Peace, even though he admited he was a terrorist and was making bombs to liberate Africans from Apartheid. How come Tudjman is “a nationalist” and possibly a war crime suspect, even though he was just trying to defend HIS OWN COUNTRY?
You said, “occupied and invaded”. It was not occupied and invaded. Yugoslavia was a country. Tudjman and Izetbegovic, under foreign influence decided to break away. Why? Nationalism. They felt they had enough of socialism, enough of brotherhood and unity, and enough of peace. They declared independence, Yugoslavia rejected it. Days after independence, Croatia suspended ALL civil rights for non-croats. Serbs/Bosniaks were not even considered “people”.
Now if your people were trapped in a country that claimed a part of land as its own, where 80 percent of Serbs have lived traditionally and places where majority Bosniaks lived, and decided to remove all human rights from your people, What would YOU do? Especially in a country that killed around 800,000 to 1,000,000 of your people in recent history?
When SAO Krajina declared independence in order to protect the rights of its citizens who did not want to break away in the first place, why did Croatia attack it? Territorial integrity? Thats very hypocritical considering Croatia had just done the same to Yugoslavia.
Tudjman was a nationalist, he incited hatred towards Serbs and Bosniaks. Milosevic was a nationalist, he incited hatred towards Croats and Bosniaks. Izetbegovic was a nationalist, he incited hatred towards Serbs and Croats.
You cannot deny this. I do not deny that Serbia commited horrible crimes that it should not have, I do not deny that Bosnia may have shelled its own people, I do not deny that everyone attacked everyone. It was a civil war. There was no clear aggressor. You are not innocent, no one is innocent. We all did things we should not have.
I’m sorry Tony, but you are wrong, both Tudjman and Izetbegovic (who Frank forgot to mention) were nationalists.
I see your knowledge of the war is limited, and your denial of history is great. First you must remember that croatians proudly allied themselves with the Nazis and killed (the numbers range from 200,000 – 700,000) Serbs in Jasenovac, but the west never once mentioned that.
Secondly, Serbs were not running into croatia trying to grab as much land as they could. In case you didn’t know the Serbs lived in an area called the Krajina, and actually that wasn’t even croatian territory until Tito decided to not divide the country by banovinas but instead into republics, and he created a much larger croatian state within yugoslavia.
When the country was divided into banovinas there were no republics, just “counties”
The Serb Krajina region was actually given to Serbs by the Austrian empire in exchange for fighting the ottoman empire if they attacked. Serbs were frontiersmen, and the Krajina had, again the numbers range, from 250,000 – 500,000 serbs.
The problem arises when croatia declares independence, but completely ignores its serb population, who does not wish to be a separtist and wants to remain within yugoslavia. Technically Serbia never attached Croatia, the Jugoslav National Army was sent in to protect the serb minority from persecution given Croatia’s hateful history against the serbs. The extreme acts of violence that occured were not carried about by the serb army, but by individuals who had a personal strong hatred for the croatians and various groups such as the Tigers…
Don’t stand there telling me that serbs invaded croatia and starting killing everyone, serbs were treated like garbage and knew what their future in croatia would be. In yugoslavia every one had the rigte to seperate (even though sometimes it was illegal) except for the serbs. The serbs infact didn’t want to seperate, but wanted to stay in yugoslavia, but were not allowed to seperate from countries declaring independence.
At the end of the day though, most people you ask about the war will tell you it was stupid and realise what’s going on aroudn them. Yugoslav people were used because of their history and known national pride to divide the country and conquerer the smaller bits more easily. It’s much easier to control 7 little coutnries than 1 respectably sized country. Ask most people and they will, if they’re honest, tell you that life was much better in yugoslavia than they live now, where standards of living have not increased that much.
Tony, don’t turn this into a clearly biased racial rant. Nobody invaded anything, the YUGOSLAV (not Serbian as you claim) army was already in each of those nations because they were the army of the whole of Yugoslavia. They actually retreated, if you check you’ll find it, and any members of the Yugoslav army were free to leave. However, Tudjman ordered some of the soldiers to fight in order to seize some equipment he needed to fulfill his plan (such as Migs, tanks etc). Once the Yugoslav army left (it was composed of Macedons, Montenegrins, Bosnians, Albanians, Hungarians, Serbs and dozens of other nationalities) Tudjman started two plans I’m sure you’ve heard.
Everyone has heard of Operation Storm and Flash by now, which is more damning than anything Milosevic ordered in Kosovo. The ethnic cleansing of half a million people and organized murder of 53 thousand civilians is a hell of a lot worse than impromptu execution of KLA prisoners of war in Kosovo. Even today Serbs are not allowed to return to Croatia. We have all heard of the Ustase crimes, the calls to hang Serbs, to kill a third, convert a third and exile a third. In view of this, saying Croats are completely innocent smacks of insanity.
Every side in that war engaged in ethnic cleansing, the Croats, Bosniaks, Albanians and Serbs. Only ones who didn’t are Slovenes, Macedons and Montenegrins.
To address your comment in whole, the fact remains there are 27 nationalities in Serbia and Serbians only make about 60% of the population; In Croatia, Croatians make up 90% of the population. Pure numbers (arithmetic never lies) tell you which nation is more multicultural, and which is more ethically cleansed. I agree that Tudjman should get a Nobel peace prize though, he belongs in the same group as other criminals, swindlers, fakers and vagabonds like Yasser Arafat, General George C. Marshall, Ralph Bunche, Albert Lutuli, Henry Kissinger, Anwar Sadat, Gorbachev, Al Gore, Martti Ahtisaari and Barack Obama. Hell, throw Milosevic in there too, he belongs with that bunch.
Anyway… in a statement to the article and its author, Kosovo shouldn’t be recognized for the simple reasons that the next nationalist president can use it to stir the people to war again; and because non-Albanians in Kosovo are getting anything but equal treatment (randomly cut off electricity and communication as of December 6th, unlawful search and seizure by “police”, stonings and firebombings…) from a government which was originally appointed, not elected, and which is made up of dubious mafia-like characters who may be to blame for more war crimes than the Yugoslav police.
Serbia is offering full autonomy to it as an independent state within a Federation, the fact that such a huge compromise is not even considered (and actually blocked by NATO) is proof that the only side willing to engage in diplomacy here is Serbia.
So if anyone is taking sides here, I guess you know where I stand.
Kosovo deserves to be independent because Kosovo was an autonomous province of former Yugoslavia. If Serbs can create a republic in Bosnia by killing non Serbs and people responsible for that are still free in Serbia then why can’t Albanians who make up 95% of Kosovo’s population and were victims of Milosevic’s regime do that?
It is a well written article but somewhat limitted in properly accounting the history of Yugoslavia.
Notably forgotten or omitted are the events of WWII. At that time all these “oppresed” people: Croatians , Albanian , Muslims of Bosnia, were German allies and committed gross crimes against Serbian population. Croatians in particular immitated Germans and had concentartion camps for the Serbs, men, women and children. There they slaughtered them with such brutality that even German officers were shoked.
The latest Yugoslavian wars have as major seed the events from that period. Serbian memory and that period and also of this writer are pretty strong, stronger than people in the West or deliberately forgotten by few of the commentators here.
The Bosnian Muslim wartime president, Alija Izetbegovic, was a radical Muslim who’d been jailed a few times throughout his life for violence against Serbs and wanting Bosnia to be an Islamic state. He even wrote a book in the 1970′s about how Islam couldn’t coexist with other religions. And the Croatian wartime president Tudjman also wrote a racist book in the 1970′s and was involved in the “Croatian Spring” back then.
So the west, backing both these men, was promoting the radical separatists from the beginning. They used the media to made them seem moderates or less radical than they really were.
The media ignored the initial attacks, killings and ethnic cleansing of Serbs.
The Bosnian Muslims had Serbs in concentration camps and illegal prisons at the beginning of the war. One terrible camp/prison was in a grain silo at Tarcin.
At the very beginning of the war, if not just before, the Muslims rapidly emptied it and practically gave the grain away, and as soon as it was done the put captured Serbian prisoners there.
I must also point out that it was Serbian women, not Muslim women, who first sent documented testimony to the UN Security Council on rapes and rape camps run by Muslims and Croats. The mainstream media didn’t mention a word on this, but suddenly after this was sent the Muslim government and media, WITHOUT ANY DOCUMENTATION WHATSOEVER AT THAT POINT, came out with copycat claims which were bandied by the mainstream media.
There is no hard evidence at all for these Muslim claims, but the media pushed every story/claim as true.
No DNA evidence, No increase in birthrate (which would have happened with the huge numbers they pulled out of their illogical @sses), No medical evidence, nothing, but media hype and coached/workshopped “witnesses” who won’t be cross examined – all the better to protect their phony stories.
The failure to recognise Kosovo is, and will remain to be, the oppression of Kosovar Albanians. Corruption in its government (although it is yet to be proved, but for arguments sake let’s assume it already is) is not reflective of its entire population. Only ignorance can justify everything being said in these comments, including bringing up WWII, for which most of the people alive then are probably dead and cannot be held accountable. Unfortunately, it seems that those who are against an independent Kosovo fail to take a comprehensive look at the bigger picture. In layman’s terms, Serbia should be left alone, as should Kosovo. Only then will relations with the minority Serb population progress and ideally, peace can be restores in what was one the beautiful balkans.
Hey, a girl can dream.
To Ivan, Kosovo Albanians have some right to self determination but not right to full independence that is why the west is is trying to call it a unique situation. Albanians
were not interested in negotiations they wanted to get everything and Serbia nothing
that is why they have not achieved more then 70 or so countries to recognize it in 3 years.
Please rephrase this, Dragan, so I can print it. I am keen to facilitate a fact-driven debate but won’t allow words like ‘disgusting’. I am happy to talk to you about this. Regards, Michael (editor, Village)
“…Muslims of Bosnia, were German allies and committed gross crimes against Serbian population.”
Fine. Well spoken, Drasko! And that gives the Serbs of course the right to exterminate the Bosniaks. Because after all they are only “islamicized Serbs, turncoats, traitors”, right? And therefore it was legitimate of Tudjman and Milosevic to try and partition Bosnia, leaving nothing for the Bosniaks, right? “Bosnia does not exist, the Bosniaks do not exist”, right? In olden times for the Serbs they were nothing but Turks, ustase and nazis, and today they are all islamists and jihadists, so Karadzic did right, Mladic did right, Arkan did right, Milan Lukic did right, it was a commendable deed to put the Bosniak women and girls in rape camps, it was a good and commendable and heroic deed to kill 10.000 in Sarajevo, 3000 in Visegrad, 8000 and more in Srebrenica, to dynamite the mosques in Visegrad and Banja Luka, and to continue to propagate hatred of Bosniaks until this very day and to continue to seek their annihilation, right? And anyone who dares criticize that even in the slightest is a fascist, a fundamentalist and anti-Serb, riiight? Cruelty, violence and destruction against civilians, schoolchildren, monuments, that is Serb heroism, but when faced with real good soldiers as the Bosniaks they all ran away, and Milosevic gave up the Krajina in the hope to settle all the Krajina Serbs in Bosnia and render thus the Bosniaks a minority in their own country, but it failed, they didn’t settle in Bosnia, they moved on into Serbia. I wish to you serbofascists that the fate you desire for the Bosniaks falls onto your own heads and those of your families and descendants and that the next time a Serb army marches into Bosnia it will meet a very sticky end indeed, and that the mothers of those soldiers will not even get the corpses back.
And yes, I might feel sorry for that Serb restaurateur from Zagreb that he lost all he had, but what about the mother from Visegrad whose 12-year old daughter was gang-raped in front of her and later murdered? Whose nine-year old son was slaughtered before her eyes? And who was gang-raped herself? And lost her family, her house, her modest wealth, the memories of her childhood and family, and was chased away from her hometown? Where her family had lived for over 500 years? Does her loss not weigh much more? Don’t the men who committed this hideous crime deserve to be punished in a similar manner (I mean, sending them to jail for two or even ten years would be most inappropriate, wouldn’t it? I’m not a particularly cruel person but whenever I hear or read of such things – and I befriended quite a few Bosniak refugees here during the war who told me of such things – notions of ripping the genitals off such men cross my mind. Even if this were 30 or 50 years after the war. Even if the person concerned were a granddaddy in a wheelchair. And their personal fortune must be taken away form them and given to the victim as compensation. Such an evil must not just be left standing. Because such people would not hesitate a second to kill me just because I am a Muslim. And to rape my daughter.) Now some might say I see all Serbs as bloodthirsty genocidal murderes and rapists. I certainly do not, but all male Serbs who were old enough and in Bosnia at that time might qualify (except those on the Bosnian side). The Bosniaks did not round up all Serb women in a certain place and put them in such a camp. They didn’t have any rape camps. Their soldiers weren’t ordered to rape Serb women and girls. The Serb soldiers certainly were ordered to rape Bosniak women and girls. Some even admitted to their victims “I must do this”. Others, like Milan Lukic did it with pleasure and sadism. This is unique to the Serbs. Unique in history. Not even the Mongols under Gengis Khan or the Soviet army in Germany were ordered to rape the local women (they did it, but they weren’t ordered to.) Weren’t the people the Serbs held in Omarska and those they slaughtered at Srebrenica not subject to the same if not much more cruelty as the Serbs in Jasenovac? And has that brought back even one victim of Jasenovac to life? Then why are so many Serbs still proud of all that, or think it was a righteous thing to do? What peace and what reconciliation can there be with such people? None, none at all! And I would strongly advise the Serbs to leave the Bosniaks IN PEACE! Some Serbs are already talking of beating the Bosniaks again! They should not think that the Bosniaks will allow themselves to be led like lambs to the slaughter again! Next time around will not be 1941-45 and 1992-95 déjà vu all over again. No matter how much anti-Muslim sentiment there is around today. I mean, the Bosniaks have not tried to rebuild their lives so that the serbofascist thugs can come and shatter them all over again: they have not raised their children so that the chetnik thugs can murder them, they have not raised their daughters so the chetnik thugs can rape them, they have not rebuilt their cultural landmarks so the the chetnik thugs can blow them up again, and they do not love and cherish their land so that Serb and Croat fascists, racists, bigots and anti-Muslims can chase them away from it. There has always been Bosnia and Bosniaks in it. They were here before you, and God willing they will be there after you. Yes, for me the forces of Karadzic and Mladic are the forces of evil, and even if the Bosniaks did commit war crimes (Hell, the Allies too commited war crimes in WWII!) , they never had a criminal premeditated plan as the Serbs had to exterminate all Bosniaks! THAT is the difference, and anyone who denies, belittles, justifies this genocidal anti-Bosniak crusade that is written down in “Gorski Vijenac” and “Nacertanije” and in “Bridge on the Drina”, the SANU Memorandum and was carried out by Draza Mihajlovioc, Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic and their tens of thousands of willing executioners, who replies to me in terms of crude anti-Muslim jingoism, Bosniak-baiting and general Muslim-bashing will only prove to me that he is of the same evil kind and does not deserve to walk this Earth but should be sent to Hell where he belongs fortwith! And just so you know, The Cross will NEVER chase the Crescent out of Bosnia! Serbs will NEVER AGAIN bring the Bosniaks to their knees! You will learn to respect the Bosniaks with the same respect you demand for yourselves! If you continue to think that Bosniaks are lesser human beings, good enough only to be stepped on by you, then the time will come when teh Bosniaks will be stronger and then may God help the Serbs! Be this 5, 50, 500 or 1000 years hence. Of course the fascist leaders of “repluka srpska” are counting just on that to instill fear into their people, so they can go on lining their pockets unnoticed, and they know that if the Bosniaks did to the Serbs only one-tenth of what the Serbs did to the Bosniaks during 1941-45 and 1992-95 then this would mean the end of the Bosnian Serbs. That is, some would be killed and the rest would just run away, crazy with fear. So I would strongly advise the Bosnian Serbs to come to Sarajevo and Srebrenica and see for themselves and then ask the Bosniaks’ forgiveness, and drop their arrogance and prepotence. I mean, not kneel down in front of the Bosniaks, just say they’re sorry. But unfortunately they are not willing to compromise, to make even the slightest and only symbolic concession. Who would want to share a planet, let alone a country with those subjects? And, if I am going to start a business over there so that I and some other guys may earn a livelihood, I’m not doing it so that when I ‘m in a certain part of the country they call me “Muslim dog” and refuse me my right to exist, and next time around some pig-faced thugs with the manners of pigs come chase me out of my house, slaughter my son, rape my daughter and insult me as “balija” or “Turk” before they waste me. And don’t say “Waah, Bosnia is full of Wahhabis” for if the Serbofascists had not started out to destroy the Bosniaks there wouldn’t be any wahhabis there in the first place. How unfair to say the Bosniaks asked the wahhabis for help, when Western Europe refused them any help at all. Should they have surrendered to the Serbs and be slaughtered as in Srebrenica? And now, just because they are there and are Muslims, do you want to keep them subdued forever? Or turn them into a people without a country? Don’t you dare!
And just so you know, as long as a majority of Serbs defends and justifies men like Draza Mihajlovic, Karadzic, Mladic, Arkan, their countless willing executioners, the rape camps, the destruction of the Bosniaks’ cultural landmarks and generally of Bosnia, I DO NOT WISH TO BE FRIENDS with the Serbs! I will not come to their country even if I got all expenses paid! And I will forbid my daughter to marry one, even if he is the nicest man in the world and really adores her! Unless he honestly and sincerely distances himself from the genocidal anti-Bosniak crusade! And even then he can’t take her away to his country or his family and much less try to convert her to the Orthodox faith!
Ivan, the Serb Republic is not independent and the people who committed crimes have been punished (or in the process of doing so). Can’t say the same for Hardinaj, Thaci and their ilk.
Rita, you are still stuck in your dreams. The Balkans were never at peace until the day they were united. How can you think turning the place into dozens of “independent” regions, constantly in tension or war with one another make things better?
“Tito’s successor Slobodan Milosevic, a Serb nationalist”
that is the most ridiculous sentence ive ever read regarding the former Yugoslavia.
Milosovic was a Dictator and tyrant.
It was during his office as president of serbia NOT yugoslavia that he began his destruction of Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia and Serbia was NEVER interchangeable.
A common quip in the media is that he stripped kosovars of their status.
He did NOT. He had no such authority to effect Yugoslavia in such a way. He was president of serbia and not yugoslavia.
What he did do, is use and force and violence to usurp the Constitutional Powers, rights, and representation of Kosovo within the Yugoslav Federal govt… the Equal to that of serbia. And attempted to USE those powers within yugolsavia on kosovo’s “behalf” to give serbia illegal, undo, and unwarranted power over the other supposedly equal republics within yugoslavia.
No matter what the nationalists rhetoric that existed by any side, His was the first and only concrete action that sought to steal power over yugoslavia as a whole, His actions, cheered by serbs, precipitated any of the violence that followed. and he used to violence and terror to try and enforce it.
And for this, He Rewarded himself by then elevating himself to president of a new so called yugoslavia, And singelhandedly re-authoring the yugoslav constitution to reflect every single wish and whim and illegal action he took as if it were always the law of the land… all the while cheered by serbs who “didnt” support him.
Milosovic was a destroyer, an inheritor of NOTHING of the former Yugoslavia he and serbs destroyed let alone titos successor. And His stunt was recognized by no one on the face of the earth.
Shouldice’s article is full of half thruths and misinterpretations. One such misrepresentation, that has not been commented on so far, is his statement that “Kosovo’s independence was upheld by the International Court of Justice last July.” The ICJ said no such thing, onlythat the declaration of independence is not against the internatioanl law, which is not saying much at all. Either Shouldice is incapable to appreciate this distinction, or he is intellectually dishonest.
@ the truth 7 Dan
I tend to agree with Tony.
JNA, which had been turned into a predominantly Serb army which then turned against the people it was supposed to protect – all yugoslav nations. After Croatia, then Bosnia was internationally recognised, Serbia continued to send troops and materiel to occupy Croatia and Bosnia. This clearly was an invasion.
You both also talk as though Yugoslavia was one country with provinces – there was no such centralisation. It was a federation of republics with varying degrees of autonomy. This was reflected in the rotating presidency.
Milosevic tried to rig the rotating presidency by installing his own stooges as reps for Vojvodina and Kosovo and when this didn’t work he tried to create a state of emergency so as to give cover for the JNA to take control and as conceded by General Kadijevic in his book, overthrow the democratically elected governements of Croatia and Slovenia.
As Tony has stated, the comparison between Tudjman and Milosevic are flawed and belie a lack of understanding of their characters and history.
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Milosevic was an ex-banker and fundamentally a careerist. He was not a true patriot or nationalist as such, as can be attested to him been concerned with maintaining power, even at the expense of the suffering of his own people. Milosevic would only exploit chavanistic Greater Serb nationalism that already existed, confering legitimacy by virtue of the office he held and his position in the communist heirarchy.
This Greater Serb nationalism remains unreconstructed today as indicated by the Srebrenica genocide denial, anti-gay riots, abuse of legal process (cf attempt to extradict Ganic and findings of judge Workman of magistrates court, politicised warrant for vukovar hospital dir Vesna Bosnac and allegations of organ trafficing aimed @ Thaci).
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Tudjman on the other hand was a communist and fought in the Partisans against the fascists and nazis and is implicated in the post war executions of Croat pows and civilians on the orders of Tito. He became a dissident when he became disillusioned with the communist system and was labelled a nationalist.
Tudjmans patriotism stemmed from a refusal to repudiate his cultural heritage in deference of a communist Yugoslav identity as was expected of Yugoslav communist officials. Tudjman genuinely cared for his people’s well being as attested to by his refusal to implement the JNA barracks blockade per the Spegelj plan and argued for by Mesic fearing massive civilian casualties.
Tudjman was not anti-Serb as alleged. But he had seen how he was jailed but rescued from potential political execution by Serb communists by Tito; he also saw the execution of Croatian Jewish communist leader Adrija Hebrang and saw the repression wrought by Serb communists such as Rankovic who Tito himself had liquidated because of his excesses. As such, he was fully aware of the need to vet government institutions of agent provocateurs (such as the Yugoslav air force officers that blew up a Jewish grave site in the hope of inciting the Jewish lobby against the Croats).
Dan declares that “Days after independence, Croatia suspended ALL civil rights for non-croats”. This is unmitigated nonsense. The constitution gave the Serbs the same rights as any other minorities which happened to be the same civil rights as that for Croats. What Serbs objected to was the notion that Croatia was a homeland for the Croats, just as Israel was a homeland for the Jews – a state where they could seek refuge and have their culture protected – quite a pertinant point given the decades of persecution by the communist Yugoslavs. Teh Croatian Serbs also pbjected to being called a minority – this hints as the decades long privilege that permeated the mentality of their leaders who thought they were above the law and civilised norms (cf Vukovar and Dubrovnik bombing).
Note however, having Croatia as a refuge for Croats in no way affected Serb or any other minority’s civil rights.
There was a loss of privilege by communist party members, with many of them happen to be Croatian Serbs – this is no different to changing governments in the west changing heads of various depts so that they have their own people rather than previous govt’s people in key posistions.
The other thing the Tudjman redress the active discrimination against non-communists, Croats and other minorities. Decades of such discrimination resulted in privileged position for Croatian Serbs where 12% population constituted 60%+of police roles, the bulk of media roles and the top bueracratic positions.
“EU-applicant Macedonia is very sensitive to events in neighbouring Albania” – in what sense? Macedonia may be sensitive to its own domestic Albanian population, but that has nothing to do with events in Albania. The bigger stumbling block has been the name dispute with Greece. Failure to mention that is only one indication of just how much nuance the author misses about the region, a sad testament that orientalism reaches this far west.
OK, why do most of the comments from above carry the heavy pro-Serbian idealism, except one from Tony? I lived through the hell of Serbian agresion, and noone has more right to talk about those years from 1991-1995 in Croatia! If I remember correctly, Croatia got its independency very easily, and was recognized and admitted as a new country by the vast civilized world in matter of days!!! Not weeks or months, or years…The only bad thing was that Croatian politicians had little or none influence on the foreign ministries, thus all their effort to stop Serbian-chetnicks agression went in vain. Here is a good point to stress out that Croatia as a country exists from many centuries ago, but never had enough inner strenght to proclaim independency until the emergence of dr.Franjo Tudjman! Even he wanted to preserve Yugoslavia, but not as a federal unit but confederal, like f.ex. USA!!! There were many organized talks between leaders of the Yugoslavian republics during 1989 1nd 1990, trying to settle things down, but Milosevic and his Serbian regime had only one thing on their mind – greater Serbia, with the famous saying “…wherever a Serbian was burried – there is Serbia!…”. Ante Pavelic formed his little forces to restrain Serbian mayhem way back in the mid 1920s, even then was the great Serbia in Serbs’ minds, slaughtering their way throughout the Croatian villages (Bosnia didn’t exist then, it was mainly part of Croatia). Ustase were only freedom fighters, caught in the 1930s and 1940s period when Hitler wanted to change the world spectrum – so it’s very natural that Croatia then didn’t trust the Serbian-Yugoslavian King’s regime or later communists – who gave birth to Milosevic and his deadly forces, only by a conducted, 45-year indoctrination of revised history facts that showed partizans and general Tito as great liberators of Croatia, with the constant killing spree in the homeland and abroad that removed all with different views and desires for better living!
Nowdays it’s only Croatia to blame for its own post-war tragedy, not to see justice fulfill, we proclaimed amnesty for all the Serbs except war criminals, who should have been processed in the Haag court, which again was partialy formed by Croatian ministry proclamation, searching for justice on a higher level. Soon it was very clear that international organizations wanted an equal guilt and equal punisment, so this is what we are now talking about? History will repeat itself, this is a situation which has no solid ground for future peace! In the 1944-45, allied forces destroyed big German cities, killing hundreds of thousands civilians, just to see Third Reich fall. Germany paid off their due last year for WWI. Serbia felt only few well targeted air strikes from NATO, and so far paid nothing for Vukovar, Dubrovnik, Petrinja, Sibenik, Osijek ruins etc etc….Not to mention people that are still missing, and are listed as such…
Ante, Bosnia has existed since the 9th century. It was never a part of Serbia. It was annexed into the NDH but that does not mean it never existed, and much less that it has no right to exist. And the Bosniaks do exist. They will continue to exist. It is commendable that Croatia has renounced all and any claims upon Bosnia’s territory and populations, especially by military means. Of course it will be very difficult to get the Serbs to do likewise. But in the end they will have to. And Bosnia is not multi-cultural nor multi-ethnic. All its people, be they Catholic, Muslim or Orthodox share certain cultural traits, speak the same dialect and whenever Bosnian Serbs or Croats come to Serbia, respective Croatia they are addressed as “Bosnian”. It is utterly malicious to accuse the Bosniaks of having started the war when it is very well known that the Serbs had premeditated and planned in advance to destroy the Bosniaks, I remember seeing Serb soldiers and paramilitaries in the news in September 1991, taking up positions with tanks and guns around Sarajevo or absconding into the forest with their AK-47s. It is also malicious to blame the Bosniaks for the war with the Croats, as some Croats and some Serbs do. One of these however was stupid enough to confess that “we got the stupid Croats to fight the Muslims for us.” Some still dream of “beating the Muslims.” With what, I’d like to know, when they couldn’t do it while they still had the JNA, ha? I know Serbs have “inat”. Well, Bosniaks have “inat” too.
And “ida”, Bosniaks may have had a handful of internment camps, which surely weren’t anywhere near like a vacation camp, but nothing like Omarska or Vilina Vlas. But to a serbofascist we all are just “balije” and “muslim dogs”, only good enough to be exterminated, and humiliated in the bargain. Just you wait, all you out there who think like that. There will never be peace in the region as long as the unnatural partition of Bosnia is upheld and as long as her neighbors continue to challenge and deny Bosnia’s existence and identity and the Bosniaks’ right to exist or to live anywhere in Bosnia they want. To say “Bosnia does not belong to the Muslims alone” is no justification for ethnic cleansing and genocide nor for the establishment of a “repluka srpska” for Serbs alone through genocide. As long as this remains so I do not wish to be friends with people who stand for such evil fascist ideas and try to whitewash themsleves by smearing us balije as “jihadists” and “terrorists” and generally try to play the islamophobic card and to hoodwink the ignorant public into believing that there is “centuries-old ethnic hate” here. No, I wish that the fate the chetniks have thought up for the Bosniaks will fall upon their own heads instead and that they will be made to PAY, and with INTERESTS, for the GENOCIDE they tried to commit on us balije in 1941-45 and 1992-95. I am not for resuming war, buit if the Dodo really pulls that stunt off and partition Bosnia, do you expect us just to say “Glad to let you have it?” No, I will be blunt, after all I’m not a diplomat and I don’t have to mince words. If that happens, the Bosniaks should resist the Bosnian Serbs fortwith, and apply to them just one-tenth, no more, (yes, exactly 10%) of the deeds they were subject to by Draza Mihajlovic’ forces in 1941-45 and by Karadzic’s and Mladic’s forces in 1992-95 (that is, only to all those who got Bosniak blood on their hands, not to the others; and certainly not to their women, we are not a chetnik mob after all. Of course, terrible things always happen in war, that ‘s what the chetniks always tell us. I’d love to see how they like it.) And then nobody will give the Bosniaks any trouble for the next 2000 years to come. Of course I don’t see that happening, Dodik may be a buffoon and a rogue (like Berlusconi but without the women; his wife wouldn’t have that, and since I know from personal experience that quite a few Serb women have the temper of a virago, and that’s when they’re well disposed; God help you if they really get angry. But I disgress…) but he certainly is no fool, he may shout it all the time but he’ll never actually pull it through, for then he is finished. The current status quo benefits him to line his pockets, and sadly also many politicians on the other side too. Too bad that always only the most evil and stupid people are in power, those who can only thrive when everything stays as bad as it is. So, the only hope for Bosnia is that the younger generations (and here I have seen that Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats can be well-disposed and even friendly to each other, if you discount the idiots from Siroki Brijeg and the stupid chetniks from the place thay call Drazevina and some stupid wahhabis whom no Bosniak in his right mind wants around anyway) to start a sort of Tunisian revolution before things get worse. Anyway, the idea by a group of Bosnian deputies to freeze the politicians’ pay until they finally agree to form a government is a good and constructive step here. Who knows, they might even develop good neighborly relations between Bosnia and Serbia some day; it worked between Germans and French, didn’t it? Even the Turks and the Greeks are cautiously approaching each other. So, why don’t you, instead of still dreaming of bringing us “balije “and “Muslim dogs” to our knees? Then Serbia would no longer be isolated.
@Dan/Erwin/the Truth, I think Thomas said everything. I mean, your claim without any proof that “…days after independence, Croatia suspended ALL civil rights for non-croats” and that “Serbs/Bosniaks were not even considered “people” is like reading “Lord of the Rings”. Your imagination really goes beyond one’s wildest dreams. Thomas nicely explained how Serbs enjoyed privileges in Croatia. Just 12% of Serbs took more than 70% of high level places in army, police and diplomacy within Croatia, both on the republic and on the local level. That also leads us to the wider picture…
I didn’t want to go so much into the past, but since we had some questionable comments here about Jasenovac and World War II, I am forced all the way back to the 1918.
The biggest problem of both Yugoslavia’s was exactly the same – strong Serbian dominance and wish to take power and to conquer others. Serbs never rejected their plan for enlarged Serbia (so called Great Serbia). First Yugoslavia was supposed to be a Kingdom of Slovenians, Croats and Serbs, but Serbs started to opress others from the very beginning. People like Ida here, and some other extreme Serbs, tend to forget who started things in the first place. Is it total ignorance, lack of education, or they are doing it on purpose, I don’t want to speculate. But I am quite sure they know what happened in 1928.
So there was a man called Stjepan Radic. We was a Croatian politician, a leader of Croatian peasant party (HSS), who was strongly against Serbian nationalism, against Serbian dominance in police and army. He fought for a balance, parity and equality between the nations and therefore he was the most popular Croatian politician of that time. And what happened? Backed with Serbian king and Serbian police, he was assasinated in 1928. But it wasn’t ordinary political assasination that happen in the world from time to time. This was the first political assasination in the world that happened within the Parliament, and the assasin was another – parliamentary delegate!!! A Serbian Punisa Racic. He also killed another two Croatian politicians. It was unpresedented event in world’s parliamentary history!
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia)
I remind you – it happened 13 years before the beginning of the World War II. Soon after that, Croatian resistance against a Serbo-centric policy increased. So Serbs started with an open dictatorship of their king. In 1929 he proclaimed a so called “January 6 dictatorship. And that was the one and only reason for a formation of Croatian resistance movement called Ustashe.
The word Ustashe itself (in Croatian) means “to stand up straight”, “to get up”. It strongly reminds me of this great Bob Marley’s song “Get up, stand up for your right”.
Of course, I am not justifying any crimes committed during the WWII, on any side, but thruth is much more complexed than on this “one way Serbian street”.
So that was the very beginning of a chain of tragic events in a so called Yugoslavia.
I really don’t want to go into an argument with certain Serbian individuals here who claim ordinary stupidities like “700,000 Serbs killed in Jasenovac”. With 500.000 Serbs you claim Croats killed during the 90′s, one could conclude Croatia has at least 10-15 million inhabitants. But if you take into consideration Croatia is a small country with 4-4,5 million people, I am really starting to believe that Serbs really enjoy playing with numbers.
Let’s get it straight: Jasenovac was an awful and tragic place. During 4 years fascist regime there killed around 70.000 people (not only Serbs, but also Jews, Romas, Croats and others). Tito’s communists also used location of Jasenovac after the end of WWII for killings of their political enemies. The place was an absolute horror!
Second Yugoslavia had a same problem lik the first one: Serbian dominance in every aspect of social life, but especially in the fields of diplomacy, police and army. History was repeating itself.
Serbs on one side – and Croats, Bosniaks and Slovenians on the other. One agressor and couple of victims. It was that simple. I don’t want to go into details about Croat-Bosnian war on purpose. It was unfortunate and stupid. Croatia and Bosnia had a same enemy with the same goal – to expell Croats and Muslims from the imagined teritory of “Great Serbia”.
But one should also know this: Croatia was the first country that recognized Bosnia&Hercegovina. Kucan, Tudjman and Izetbegovic (Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia) first offered Confederation to Serbia within Yugoslavia, but Milosevic didn’t like the plan. If he said YES, war wouldn’t happen. Croatia helped Bosnia during the war in many ways – Croatia welcomed more than 300.000 Muslim refugees from Bosnia (EVEN DURING THE CROAT-MUSLIM FIGHTINGS), Croatia opened its hospitals for Muslim fighters, Bosnian army was armed because Croatia opened its borders for transportation of arms… And if it wasn’t for Croatian Army in 1995, Bosnia would have another Srebrenica massacre in Bihac! Croatia liberated Bosnia&Hercegovina! That is the truth.
And yes, maybe Tudjman for a brief moment really had an idea of dividing Bosnia in 2-3 parts. But the truth is that everybody was dividing Bosnia. The world, international community, all those international envoys.. Hell, Bosnia is divided into two as we speak. But there is no Croat state within Bosnia. All we see is so called Republic of Srpska. So once and for all – STOP saying everybody is guilty and that we are all the same. WE ARE NOT.
@Abdulmajid, I would like to agree with you when you said “it worked between Germans and French, didn’t it”? But in order to do the same here, Serbs must once and for all admit their mistakes, they must abandon their plan to form a Great Serbia, and they have to apologise to the victims of their agressive and fascists war during the 1990.
But unfortunately, from things I read here, we don’t see this on Serbian side. We just see a couple of poor individuals who try to make a balance. Can you imagine what would have happened to Germans, for example in 1960, if they tried to say that holocaust was everybody’s fault, that Britan, USA and the rest of the world were also to blame for a WWII?!?
I think I know the answer. They would go in jail. Well, they still do in Germany, if they try to negate the holocaust. So why the hell Serbs have the right to spit on innocent victims of their Great Serbian dream? Serbs should be quiet and hope their victims will forgive them. That is the only way for a true reconsiliation between the nations in the Balcans.
I’d like to point out that the ethnic Serb population of Bosnia was, until several decades ago, the largest in Bosnia.
There were more ethnic Serbs in Bosnian than Muslims during the time of the Austrian rule (according to Austrian census in the late 1800′s) – who decided to take the name of Bosnia so they can claim to be heir to it even though ethnic Serbs lived there long before the Muslim religion ever came to the area.
The Austrian census in the late 1800′s had the Serbs at 40-something percent and the Muslims at 30-something percent, so a reverse of what happened today.
The Muslims always sided with outsiders.
Neither the Croats nor Serbs want to live under Muslim domination, as they know they will be treated as dhimmi’s and already you have Croats leaving Sarajevo and having trouble with discrimination.
Some Sarajevo Croat parents are even sending their children to schools in the RS (Republika Srpska) due to Muslim oppression of Croats/Christians.
Most of the dead in the Bosnian war WERE SOLDIERS AND MILITANTS. Norwegian researchers hired by the ICTY went over all names and causes of death. They discovered that the Muslims were multiplying their dead by counting the same people more than once. They were also counting soldiers as civilians.
The Bosnian Muslims had the largest army fighting in Bosnia – it was 200,000 men. So of course that was the group which had the largest loses.
The Bosnian Muslims also fought the Croats from late 1992 until the U.S. brokered peace deal in late February 1994.
The Srebrenica Muslims were carrying out a scorched earth tactics against Serbian villages all around Srebrenica. They were burning down villages and killing Serbian livestock. They were decapitating Serbs – this was seen on Naser Oric’s video tapes by John Pomfret of the Washington Post and Bill Schiller of the Toronto Star.
Naser Oric was bragging about what he and the 28th Brigade of Srebrenica was doing and how they killed Serbs – with explosives, with “cold weapons that night” and so on.
The kangaroo court at the Hague (brainchild of Madeleine Albright) didn’t even try Naser Oric for his crimes or allow testimony about his crimes – even a Muslim who witnessed what he did. Instead the Hague avoided that and mainly focused on beating of Serb prisoners in jails there and sentenced Naser Oric for not controlling those guards. It was a scam of a trial.
Also, many of the Srebrenica “missing” were found on the OSCE’s 1996 voting lists in Tuzla.
The Muslims are counting all soldiers who died throughout the war and including those from Zepa – which is a nearby town to Srebrenica – and counting these soldiers FALLEN IN BATTLE as being Srebrenica victims.
“I DO NOT WISH TO BE FRIENDS with the Serbs! I will not come to their country even if I got all expenses paid!”
That’s good to hear, Abdulmajid, because Serbs need you Muslims around like they need a blow to their heads. You Muslims, Croats were and still are tools for foreign invaders and meant to be thorns in the side of Serbs. The wars were set up and you are believing pure lies. The census records show it was the Serbs mostly ethnically cleansed and not the Croat or Muslims.
The media covered for all the huge and constant crimes of the Bosnian Muslim army. It was purposely initiated and provoking attacks to get a response from the Serbs to get them in trouble. Many UN personnel have testified how Muslim would purposely start firing from near a UN compound towards the Serbs to try to get a Serb shell to hit the UN building. They also caught Muslims with mobile mortars firing from hospital grounds. They found Muslim snipers in Sarajevo using the former Parliamentary building to shoot at Sarajevo civilians.
Muslims knew Serbs would automatically be blamed which is why sniping at civilians (which gave no advantage to Serbs militarily) gave them the PR they wanted.
Muslims had rape camps all over Sarajevo and they had ex-cons such as Jusuf Prazina (look up what he did) in charge at the beginning of the war.
Croatia was sending paramilitary in to kill Bosnian Serbs even before the war officially started.
Muslims soldiers also fought in Croatia’s war and killed and ethnically cleansed Croatian Serbs.
Croats started the killing in Vukovar, specifically with Tomislav Mercep and his death squads.
Census shows it’s the Croatian Serb population which dropped from 12.2% in 1999 to around 4.5% in 2001.
Sarajevo Serb civilians were being killed at the beginning of the war by many Bosniak criminals. One was Muslim Topalovic “Caco” who commanded the 10th mountain brigade.
He was brutally killing and decapitated Serbs then throwing their bodies down the Kazani gorge. Investigators working for the ICTY did find bones of Serbs there which showed torture, but then they stopped because they feared large numbers would start to eclipse the alleged crimes of Serbs.
“I DO NOT WISH TO BE FRIENDS with the Serbs! I will not come to their country even if I got all expenses paid!”
Leave Serbs alone you shrilly Muslim. They are better away from you. You drag them down. It’s the Serb refugees who show signs of severe torture from what their Muslim and Croat captors did, while you Muslims are unscratched, chubby and able-bodied – but you have your wild propaganda stories.
It’s funny how you think it’s some kind of threat you staying away from Serbs, but I actually cringe at the thought of you illogical anti-Serb tools around them. I’m not Serb but pro-Serb and I think the rest of you Balkans people are entirely obnoxious. Go play with each other and leave Serbs alone.
The mainstream media on the entire Balkan wars (which were set up by the U.S./CIA, Germany/BND, and more) was manipulative and lying.
It’s obvious that this is a never ending discussion, Serbs will have their mouths full until the emergence of a lightning from above strikes and kneel them down once and for all…I cannot express how sorry I am that international community stopped Croatian forces in late summer of 1995., combined with the Bosnian army, when it was obvious that complete liberation of BiH state is on the horizon, pushing Serbian soldiers back, across the Drina river and further…But, it’s still not too late, there should be no so called “Republika Srpska”, a worm-like structure that has no future – Bosnian army should do what Croatian army did in 1995. with the similar Serbs’ creation within Croatia – it really takes only couple of days! That’s Serbian bravery, one could write a book that would stand proudly on the shelf, side by side with Italian bravery…
As for you all pro-Serbs writing here – I don’t have intention of reading your comments because I know how you all think, you can only take a little notebook and write some useful infos!
Actually the RS is getting investment and notice from foreign countries as it is less corrupt and doing better than the Muslim-Croat “Federation”. Many remark how beautiful Banja Luka is too. There’s also greater and successful returns of Muslims to the RS (and have been since several years ago) than there is of Serbs to the Muslim-Croat “Federation”.
Oh and I’ll just say “Ante” is a fitting name for a Croat as Croats are noted, by so many, for being small-minded – small like an ant(e) ye minds are. This is the conclusion of many who served in the Balkans and didn’t have any prejudice towards Croats (as they weren’t the target of NATO countries) when they went in.
Croats are a cold people and I can see it in your thinking too. You do not have the sense of humor like Serbs and you lack the charm.
Actually, as by my religion I do believe that Man is good by nature, and I know that all people in Bosnia (and of course in Serbia and croatia as well) are actually and at heart good, kind, sympathetic people and generally well disposed to strangers; but then chauvinism and ultranationalism have been fed to them for so long. And my sympathy is reserved for those Serbs and Croats who refused and who distance themselves from the anti-Bosnjak genocidal crusade. But if a majority still supports that, what can I do? I must refuse such people my friendship. And likewise, those Bosniaks who have come back to Srebrenica can’t be friends with the murderers of their relatives and friends, who still roam the streets freely. Or who have built a church or a cross over the Potocari graveyard just to mock and taunt the survivors. That’s too much to ask even of the most forgiving of souls.
A few years ago, a group of students from Belgrade came to Sarajevo and to Srebrenica to see for themselves. What did they say then? What do they think today?
There are people in Serbia who feel empathy with the victims of Srebrenica and of the Bosnian war. There is that guy who was a prisoner of the Bosniaks and was mistreated by them yet does not bear them any grudge now and is for reconciliation; there are young Serb people in Bratunac and in Srebrenica who feel nothing wrong in befriending young Bosniaks; there is the Bosnian Serb mayor of Foca, a place which saw the worst of ethnic cleansing of Bosniaks, who is not against cooperation with the Bosniaks. All this is very good but at the moment it is not sufficient, not compared with Dodik’s clout and the countless fascists who are still around. These fascists smear President Tadic and his government as “quislings” and “traitors”, when this government is doing the right thing and attempting reconciliation with Croatia, and to overcomeSerbia’s isolation. What’s wrong with that? Now they need to sek also the forgiveness of the Bosniaks. Or does anybody think that since Bosniaks are inferior human beings (for being Muslims or just for being there) nobody needs show them any consideration? They are not! And even if the ancestors of soem Bosniaks may have been Serbs, quite probably even, Bosniaks are not just islamicized Serbs, they are Bosniaks! Would Kostunica or Vojislav Seselj do better? I don’t think so. It is one thing to be a patriot. It is quite another thing to be an ultranationalist, a chauvinist, a bigot, a racist, a fascist! If Serbs want to be considered a civilized people again they should forsake such things fortwith! And yes, I allow myself to lecture them on this since they always try to give me a history lesson why the extermination of Bosniaks was “necessary, and a good thing too!”
What is most disgusting is how this “ida” person insults the Bosniak victims of Serb rape camps by saying the Bosniaks started it all first, which I hear here for the first time; and then by saying the Bosniak victims of rape are all liars, which is undoubtedly a propaganda lie and also intended to continue hurting the victims. I have read serbofascist propaganda diatribe by this “ida” person on many other web sites. But then, as some other very insightful commenter wrote:
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That is exactly what you do “ida”, you support genocide, you smear the victim as the criminal, in my eyes you are as guilty as Ratko Mladic himself, your genocidal pro-Serb fanatism is obnoxious and disgusting and beyond good and evil. Judging by your serbofascist anti-Bosniak diatribe, you must be as horrible and repulsive a person as this Biljana Plavsic is (btw. Biljana is as evil as she is ugly; I’d rather face a firing squad than go to bed with such an ugly repulsive woman. Come to think of it, better she would.) I give you NO RIGHT whatsoever to attack me ad hominem as you do, nor to spread such incredibly fantastic and disgusting propaganda lies, are you totally deranged, by your anti-Muslim diatribe you show yourself to be a truly malicious and evil person in your defense of the worst war criminals and your damnation of the Bosniaks, of us “balije”, of us “Muslim dogs”. Well, Ante is 100% right about “repluka srpska” (thank you Ante!) and as he rightfully said it is still not too late to undo this genocidal creature “RS” and, IDA, when this time comes as undoubtedly it must, this “Muslim dog” challenges you to come to Bosnia, back your words with deeds, not from your keyboard safe at home. I will tell you more, if my sister or my daughter ever thought and talked the things you do I would disown her. Not that it will happen, they aren’t dumb after all, but you are beyond help. Just so you know, the Cross will NEVER chase the Crescent from Bosnia, your genocidal friends will get the worst of it should they ever try to commit genocide against my Bosniak brothers and sisters again, and I will not mourn the death of one single of those chetnik fiends. For the sake of peace I do sincerely hope that more and more Serbs will distance themselves from those evil genocidal views that you embrace with such passion, and that those who do not and their despicable friends worldwide will only find unhappiness in life. And that only because I can’t say here that I wish them the same fate they want for us Muslim dogs (that is, a very sticky end indeed) for they are evil incarnate. Fascist genocidal barbarians and savages. This “Muslim dog” can only hope you will finally awaken to the fact that Milosevic’s genocidal crusade was not heroic but as evil as the Holocaust even if it did not by far reach its magnitude. May God have mercy on your soul and forgive you, but I can never. May the fate you wish for us “Muslim dogs” hit you instead! Yes, indeeed, may you suffer the fate you wish for Bosniaks over and over and also not spare your future generations! May God give you all you want to happen tothe Bosniaks! And if you tell me to leave serbs alone, no, you Serbs leave us balije “untermenschen” alone! But you won’t do that, you will always want to see us erased from the face of the earth. I have never subscribed to the viewpoint “Srbe na vrbe” but for the likes of you I can’t but feel that whoever said that was not so wrong after all. At lest what the rapist of 11-year old schoolgirls and those who detroyed Ferhadija and the Vijecnica are concerned. Those men deserve not to die just one but a thousand deaths. What I wish for you I’ll better not say. But I want to give you back your anti-Muslim vitriol and hate. With interests. Or do you perchance expect me to kiss your a cheek for what you say??? Do you expect me to commend the Serbofascists for their hate of my people? ANd just so you know, the Bosniaks know very well what kind of persons Caco and Celo were, and Alija Izetbegovic sent police chief Dragan Vikic (some Muslim, hah, Dragan, right?) to suppress them, and they were suppressed for they were no asset to our side. ANd who was the military commander who defended Sarajevo, Jovan Divjak? Some Muslim jihadist, jovan, eh? I tell you, the life of one single Bosnian Serb soldire who was in the Armija is worth to me much more than that of thousand chetnik fiends, rapists and murderers! Long live unified Bosnia-Herzegovina, and long live the heroic Bosniak people!
If one reads this last couple of comments carefully, one will see who is together on one side and who is alone on the other side. Serbs like “Ida” are negating absolutely everything and tragically ridiculously trying to say that unarmed Croats and Muslims first started to attack heavily armed Yugoslav/Serbian Army, 4th army in Europe. Croatian soldiers at first had nothing but an old guns and pistols, sometimes even taken from antiques shop. Same happened in Bosnia as well, while Serbs had all the artillery and guns and airplanes and tenks they wanted because they controlled so caled Yugoslav army. I mean, how stupid Croats and Muslims would have been if they really started to attack someone so powerful. And yes, Serbs were pretty powerful at the time. Milosevic planned it all very carefully.
On the other side here we have Croats like Ante and Muslims like Abdulmajid, who agreed on extremely important subject: “it is still not too late to undo this genocidal creature “Republika Srpska”!!!!!!!!
@Abdulmajid, this “Ida” person is not dillusional. Ida knows very well what “she” wants to say. If Hitler was still alive, I bet he would use the very same language and very same explanations as Ida. Yeah right, Ida. Serbs have enemies all across Balkans. You fought a war with almost every single neighbouring nation. Serbian troops even took UN an EU personell for hostages. I am sure you don’t believe the things you say. But I suppose it’s just much easier for you to say those awful lies, to negate Serbian atrocities at the end of 20th century. Maybe if you repeat that a 100, or a 1000 times, you think the world will believe your version.
Unfortunately, there are no versions. There is only truth, and its right here, in front of you: Serbia was an agressor. First Croatia and then Bosnia&Herzegovina were the victims. And that’s it. It was that simple.
Croatia and Bosnia had a same enemy with the same goal – to expell all Croats and all Muslims from the imagined teritory of “Great Serbia”. From Ida’s words it is obvious we still have the same enemy. Radical Serbian fascists ready to negate genocide they commited in Croatia and in Bosnia. I just hope they are not, and they never ever will be ready for another attack.
Croatia and Bosnia were, and still are, allies. In spite that tragic and stupid short battle between them, they should continue working together and fighting together against the same enemy. Turkish president Suleyman Demirel knew that very well. Back in the 90′s Demirel was aware that Croatia was a valuable and strong friend of Bosnia&Herzegovina. That is why he came to the funeral of the first Croatian president Franjo Tudjman in December 1999. Croatia liberated an important part of Bosnia from Serbian army, paramilitary and chetniks.
@Abdulmajid, I am aware your people suffered a lot during Serbian agression, but Croats suffered a lot too. Please, I urge you to bare that in mind and try to pay respect to all those innocent Croats as well who died from the same Serbian hands like Muslims. We will eventually have to forgive them, but before that all Serbian Ida’s have to face the truth…
We will be patient. Truth is on our side.
Here’s the missing part about serbofascist propaganda lies. I read this on RFE/RL:
“Dobrica Cosic : “We lie to deceive ourselves, to console others; we lie for mercy, we lie to fight fear, to encourage ourselves, to hide our and somebody else’s misery. We lie for love and honesty. We lie because of freedom. Lying is the trait of our patriotism and the proof of our innate smartness. We lie creatively, imaginatively, inventively.”
Six pivotal themes in Serbian propaganda:
1. Victimization, in which Serbs were constructed as collective victims first of the NDH, then of Tito’s Yugoslavia, and more specifically of Croats, Albanians, Bosnians, and other non-Serbs.
2. Dehumanization of designated ‘others’, in which Croats were depicted as ‘genocidal’ and as ‘Ustaše’, Bosnians were portrayed as ‘fanatical fundamentalists’, and Albanians were represented as not fully human. These processes of dehumanization effectively removed these designated ‘others’ from the moral field, sanctifying their murder or expulsion.
3. Belittlement, in which Serbia’s enemies were represented as beneath contempt.
4. Conspiracy, in which Croats, Slovenes, Albanians, the Vatican, Germany, Austria, and sometimes also the Bosnians as well as the U.S. and other foreign states, were seen as united in a conspiracy to break up the SFRY and hurt Serbia. In this way, the Belgrade regime’s obstinate disregard for the fundamental standards of international law was dressed up as heroic defiance of an anti-Serb conspiracy.
5. Entitlement, in which the Serbs were constructed as ‘entitled’ to create a Greater Serbian state to which parts of Croatia and Bosnia would be attached, under the motto, ‘All Serbs should live in one state.’
6. Superhuman powers and divine sanction. The Serbs were told that they were, in some sense, “super”. They were the best fighters on the planet, they could stand up to the entire world, and they were sanctioned by God himself, because of Tsar Lazar and the fact that Lazar had chosen the heavenly kingdom. Moreover, since Lazar had chosen the heavenly kingdom, the Serbs, encouraged to view themselves as Lazar’s heirs, were entitled to the earthly kingdom which Lazar had repudiated, as their patrimony.”
And “ida”, just so you know, Bosniaks only killed as many Serbs in all four years of war as the Serbs did in just under one hour at Srebrenica, so “all sides are equally guilty”, hah?
And you will say “Muslims fired the first shots (at that famous wedding party in Sarajevo) and the war began” Hah! So what? First it is not true, by that time (April 2, 1992) the Serbs had already started murdering the Bosniaks of Bijeljina, and who fired the first shots does not matter, Gavrilo Princip fired the first shots of WWI yet there is no doubt today that Germany (and to a not much lesser extent France) wanted the war.
The Bosniaks have taken care of such thugs as Juka or Caco themselves when it became clear that they were more of a liability than an asset. They will never again be able to harm anybody. But the serbofascists still idolize such guys as Arkan even though he lived like a mad dog and deservedly died like a mad dog, and the thousands of willing Serbofascist executioners still roam the country and brag about their “heroic deeds!”
Naser Oric and Rasim Delic came to the Hague Tribunal voluntarily; they had that decency. Your hero Ratko Mladic cowardly hides himself away. He has none.
“Also, many of the Srebrenica “missing” were found on the OSCE’s 1996 voting lists in Tuzla” you say. That’s crap, a cheap propaganda lie which has already been disproved. “Ida”, that you come up with this again does not prove your ignorance, that is pure malice, intended to still put the truth in doubt and second to demoralize the Bosniaks, it’s all only psychological warfare. For some Serbs and Muslim-haters the war is not yet over, they believe it will only be over when Bosnia has been emptied of the last Bosniak! Sorry to disappoint you but that will never happen. Quite the contray. All serbofascist propagandists are purely malicious and still filled with an immense hatred of Bosniaks. And what’s worst they hide this hatred behind the “victims of fascism” pretext. And I say through their malice they have forfeited all their rights.Who would want to share a planet with them? Didja hear that “IDA” I for one do not wish to share this planet Earth here with those of your ilk, is that totally clear?
But as Ante said, it is always the same, they will deny ever having done anything wrong; yet the notion that the Bosniaks are guilty of the war, that they deserve what happened to them and should be forced to leave the country or be just a minority but have no right to freedom and independence because the rights of the saintly Serb nation come first and stand above all must be always refuted; the anti-Bosniak propagandists only keep disseminating them to demoralize and delegitimize the Bosniaks; it is part of their continuing anti-Bosniak warfare.
Ante wrote:
“I cannot express how sorry I am that international community stopped Croatian forces in late summer of 1995., combined with the Bosnian army, when it was obvious that complete liberation of BiH state is on the horizon, pushing Serbian soldiers back, across the Drina river and further…But, it’s still not too late, there should be no so called “Republika Srpska”, a worm-like structure that has no future – Bosnian army should do what Croatian army did in 1995. with the similar Serbs’ creation within Croatia – it really takes only couple of days! That’s Serbian bravery, one could write a book that would stand proudly on the shelf, side by side with Italian bravery…”
Ante, I agree 100% with that! Me too! I couldn’t have said it better myself.
And Tony, I agree with your comment too. Thank you very much. Yes, Croatia was instrumental in the liberation of Bosnia; and the way things have been going between Bosnia and Croatia are encouraging. And not that it means anything, but Bosniaks and Croats are genetically closer related than Bosniaks and Serbs, so that crap about Bosniaks being “islamicized Serbs” is just that, crap. But none should ever forget that whatever their ancestors may have been, today Bosniaks are Bosniaks, with a cultural identity all of their own, the shared common traits with all other Bosnians notwithstanding. And none should forget that the Bosniaks have withstood the third largest army in Europe. And the heaviliest equipped army in the bargain, with only improvised armament. Nobody should think the Bosniaks are easy prey. I would say one Bosniak soldier is as good as one hunderd chetnik soldiers.
As for now Croatia and Bosniaks enjoy quite friendly relations; last year in Sarajevo I befriended a visiting Croatian couple, and they felt quite at ease there; the Catholic churches in Sarajevo hadn’t as much as a scratch on them. Bosniaks come to Croatia to spend the summer on the beach as in the “good old times”. So, “Croats are being oppressed by Bosniaks???” I don’t think so. That’s just another “Ida” PROPAGANDA LIE. Of course, there still are some Croatian anti-Muslim fascists around; but they are of no consequence. Indeed some Serbs still brag how they got the “Stupid Croats to fight the Bosniaks for them” (their words, not mine! See in how high esteem they hold you, fellers?) A stupid, tragic mistake, it will not happen again. But as for “ida” I wish she ‘d have the courage (actually cheek) to confront the Bosniak survivors of Srebrenica, but she won’t because then she’d be likely to suffer some physical harm. And as for the Serbs having a “sense of humor”: 1) some German guy said that after 1945 the Germans “lost their sense of humor”. Are you talking about the same kind? Some sense of humor. 2.) Then the genocidal anti-Bosniak crusade was just a joke, hah? Yes, we have seen how the Serb sense of humor manifested itself in the sniping of Sarajevo civilians, forcing Bosniak prisoners to fight and rape each other, chetniks taking away Bosniak women and girls to “make coffee” for them (that is, to gang rape them at Vilina Vlas and other places). Blasting the historic monuments and burning the National Library. Undoubtedly to you Banja Luka is beautiful without its Ottoman mosques. Dodik too said something like that. Some joke, that. Well, the very notion of “Repluka srpska” and all the feeble argumentation to defend it IS actually a very sick joke, but don’t worry, nobody is going to attack them. They themselves will bring about their downfall. We will see how many Bosniaks and Bosnian Croats really return to it, there will come a day when their presence can’t be ignored, and THEN we will see what happens; or if the Dodo really tries to go it alone or be embraced by Serbia (although, by whom in Serbia?); what comes next I believe Ante is right, and I can only tell the serbofascist that it is written in your own Scripture: “he who sows the wind will reap the…guess what? Shall I say it? Really? Yes? All right, here goes: S – T – O – R – M ! A word that still strikes fear in the hearts of the impious. Now, you will say I threaten the Serbs and want their destruction. Bah, why should I, or anybody in his right mind, love such people as “ida”, or Ratko Mladic or Milan Lukic? The world would be a better place without them. (And, I’m talking about individuals here, not a nation or a people, even though whenever I read such offensive comments as by “ida” the idea of “accursed nation” comes to mind. And why not? The Americans have said worse things about the Japanese during WWII, and nobody complains about that.) Besides that, who would be so foolish as to tell his enemies he will attack them? That’s only a very friendly cautionary message to them not to play with fire. What they make of it is their own affair. Besides that, logic says that it can only be a matterof time until this unjust and absurd situation balances itself out. And it’s only because of people who think lika “ida” that Serbia finds itself in the fix it is. And thanks to their intransigence in the end the situation will be solved but not the way they want it. They only want to take all, make not the slightest concession, no compromise, it has gotten them nowhere, it will get them nowhere in the end. And they should not think the Russians will crush us balije for them. Long live United Bosnia-Herzegovina and all those who stand for her!
Ah, and while we are mentioning STORM, I would like to add that the Croats did not actually murder sooo many poor angelical innocent Krajina Serbs. They didn’t need to. Milosevic had given up on the Krajina because it was indefensible from Serbia, the supply lines were too long and stretched, the Bosniaks were threatening to cut off the small corridor in the Posavina, and they had defeated the Abdicevci traitors (and they should have put at least all of their leaders to the sword or against the wall or hung them from the trees; but if our Prophet didn’t do that with the pagans of Mecca, what’s the point?). Still, of course Satan Slobo tried to use the situation to his advantage. He thought he could resettle all those poor Krajina Serbs in Bosnia, or in Kosovo, to tip the demographic scales against the Bosniaks, resp. the Kosovars, that’s why he actually ordered his army to run away. But this pathetic scheme backfired. All those people settled around Belgrade, and are treated worse than the African asylum seekers coming to Europe. They still live in refugee camps, I think. (No Bosniak must live in a refugee camp any longer but still many have been dispersed to the ends of the Earth, and many, many still are destitute and have lost their hometown.) It is surely good that Milosevic was finally removed from power and that (by his refusal to take his medicine) he can no longer do anybody harm. Or else he’d achieved that Serbia would be much smaller today, but still…”all Serbs in one state”. That can still happen should Kostunica or any such loony who still believes in Greater Serbia ever gain power. For the sake of the whole region let us hope it never comes to that.
Dear Tony,
I know. I am still resentful for Stolac, for Dretelj, that the Old quarter of Mostar was flattened like Dresden was in 1945, or the Stari Most being blasted to pieces (I do however recognize the gesture on part of Croatia to help rebuild it; that’s just as important and good as the British donating the golden orb and cross for rebuilding the ruined church in Dresden) . But I know not all Bosnian Croats are like that. To me, for example Rudolf Hren who was one of the martyrs of Srebrenica is as worthy as any of my fallen Bosniak brothers. May God bless him and all like him. A street in Srebrenica should be named after him. I feel the same gratitude for the (not so few) Bosnian Croats and Serbs who did not betray their Bosniak friends, and who were killed or went through great sufferingfor that. For none hath greater love than he who gave his life for his friends. I wonder how this “ida” person can say such lies about Croats being oppressed in Sarajevo when there is a private Catholic school there, which also many Bosniak children attend, and discrimination s forbidden there; Catholicm, Orthodox and Muslim children are al taught their respective faith, and to respect each other. There are more girls in miniskirts there than with a headscarf; and if you like a drink there is no problem in getting one. Sarajevo like Teheran? C’mon!
I would like to say, the “War within the war”, Ahmici, Konjic, all that, was a tragic mistake, it will never happen again, let us try to find a way to get over this together; let us see if we can share and thus ease our pain; can your people say the same? But then I know that Ivo Josipovic and Bakir Izetbegovic (and in a way also Boris Tadic; but let’s wait and see) are much more reasonable than their predecessors, and the younger generations are more well-disposed to each other; also the younger Serbs, at least part of them;
and having just read what Auschwitz was like (yes, I’m sure Jasenovac was not much better but to use it as a pretext to annihilate the Bosniaks or to delegitimize Croatia is profoundly dishonest, immoral and evil) I do not wish that even upon my enemies; but I wish those among the younger Serbs who still believe in the genocidal anti-Bosniak crusade could experience only 1/10 of what the chetniks did to Bosniaks (including having to fear for their daughters’ or sisters’ well-being although I’m totally against actually touching them; after all, if they even weren’t around when that happened, what’s the point? Just showing them testimony of what Bosniak girls had to go through and ask them how they’d like that would suffice. That’s what I would do.)
But then I wish so much that someday when a Bosniak kid hears stories from 1992-95 from his grandfather who had to go through the war he can say: “But Grandpa, how can that be? I mean, me, Mujo, Ivica, Dragan and Moshe, we are all Bosnians, right?” Some people might say Islam is the “cult of evil”; yet, it is written that God has created mankind into many tribes so that they “may learn to know each other” that is, learn to meet each other in friendship and mutual respect. Not religion is evil, nor the nation; there are only evil individuals. The region has so much to offer and it could really be prosperous; fratricidal war does not help. And yes, the Bosnian war was a fratricidal war; because after all, Bosnians have more things in common than separates them; if only they would see it. I bet if some Bosnian Serb and some Bosniak started discussing their everyday problems they would say to each other, “Oh, it’s the same for you too? Yes, I know what you’re talking about.” After the Thirty Years’ War, there never was another fratricidal war in Germany; the Americn Civil War was so violent and bloody that even the most diehard Southerners today won’t consider pulling off another one. With the EU the enmity between Germany and France has (hopefully) been ended; the EU is no good in the eyes of many , but if it can prevent war and enmity then it is a very good thing indeed. This did not happen overnight, and it will not happen overnight in the Western Balkans either; there is just a hopeful start. A few years back the mosques in Nis were torched by an anti-Muslim mob; today it seems the local people have nothing against Turkey helping rebuild the Ottoman cultural monuments there. I read even a comment from some Serb a while back expressing his wish to live with the Albanians as neigbors not in enmity but in mutual respact. Yes, there are encouraging signs, even though there is still a long way ahead. Of course I know you have to make peace with your enemies, for you can’t make peace with your friends. Let’s hope the ultranationalsits and fascists (and I mean also the Wahhabis) will become more and more irrelevant. Right at the moment things are in a bit of a fix but I can’t think anybody in his right mind in Bosnia wishes back the dark times, “the devil’s wind”.
“The Bosniaks have taken care of such thugs as Juka or Caco themselves when it became clear that they were more of a liability than an asset.”
Yes removed when they no longer had any Serb civilians in the Muslim controlled part of Sarajevo to kill or put in prisons and rape camps. They served their purpose with the murders of Sarajevo Serb civilians which Bosnian Muslim military records (released in 1997) said were killed by the scores in the first several days of the war.
And Alija Izetbegovic was praising Juko on TV when he was killing Serbs and torturing them in his prisons in Sarajevo. But problem was this EX-CON was an all around trouble maker and was stealing and abusing Bosniaks as well. Also, he started challenging Alija and was getting out of control. At this point, when the unarmed Serbs were fully dealt with, the Bosnian Muslims only wanted those who could fight well against military forces, so they became more professional.
Juko went on to Mostar where he fought with the Croats.
There were Croat-run concentration camps in the Mostar area that had Muslims in them – AFTER they had been used for Serbs, with Muslims cooperating.
Caco was removed for similar reasons.
But Celo I and Celo II were living free long after the war and just being gangsters.
Ironically one of them was murdered by Kosovo Albanian gangsters who apparently have grown strong in Sarajevo and other parts of Bosnia.
So neither Bosnian Muslims nor the internationals cared to deal with these murderers and rapists of Serbs for those crimes, but only because they weren’t “useful” to Bosniaks and were causing problems for them.
Sarajevo is almost pure Muslim now. Before the war it had 40% Serbs. Muslims usurped A LOT of Serbian apartments and homes there – I read something like 20,000 apartments.
Also Muslim refugees in Boston, interviewed by David Mladinov, told of how they, with the Croats, ethnically cleansed and killed all the Serbs in Capljina at the very beginning of the war.
Then Croats turned on them and put them in camps were both had previously abused Serbs.
Also, for Tony, if the Muslims and Croats were so unarmed, the how come they were using HEAVY WEAPONS against each other in the Bosnian war within just a few months after that war started?
A Croat site on the Muslim-Croat war details heavy fighting and fights with the large Muslim army. There was fierce fighting for Vitez, for example, where Croats controlled THE LARGEST EXPLOSIVES PLANT IN BOSNIA.
Bosnian Muslims and Croats had much of the weapons production facilities in their control and there was arms smuggling BEFORE the war started by Cengic (sp) and other Muslims who were preparing for the war and actually training in Croatia and participating in that war there.
Also the Bosnian Muslims attacked the Yugoslav army when it was retreating during UN brokered deals at the beginning of the war.
In Tuzla and Sarajevo there were massacres of the retreating Yugoslav army.
The Muslims and Croats WERE ARMED. It is a myth that they didn’t have weapons and explosives and tons of torture equipment which they admittedly used.
Croat Miro Bajramovic has testified that he alone killed scores of civilian Serbs under orders of Tomislav Mercep.
I’ve seen autopsy photos of Serbs mutilated and killed by the Srebrenica Muslims.
The Srebrenica Muslims massacred Serbs on Serbian Christmas 1993. There are pictures with Naser and his men posing by destroyed and burnt out buildings. It is noted that they have guns and decent winter military uniforms. 2, including Naser, are on horseback.
The fact that you never read of the documented testimony by Serbian women, which was sent to the UN Security Council in late 1992 just shows how the mainstream media can suppress information by simply not putting it in the regular news. But in fact it was 800 detailed cases – 800 where first and last name of the person testifying is known – and this of course doesn’t count those who never lived or could report what happened.
See here for some of the quotes from the documents:
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/raped-serbs.html
Here’s one report from a confessed rapist, fully named – Alija Selimagic – who also names others. It was an ANTI-SERBIAN crusade by the Muslim police and army which was masked by the propaganda. IT WAS YOU AND THE CROATS WHO WERE WANTING TO CLEANSE ALL THE SERBS. AND TUDJMAN WAS CAUGHT ON TAPE TALKING ABOUT IT TOO. (I think some of that film is even on youtube, but I don’t have the link at the moment.)
Read here how cruel and organized the Muslim men were:
Extracts from the confession by [a Muslim] Alija Selimagic of the crimes committed in the villages around Bosanski Brod with a facsimile of the part containing his signature.
RAPINGS
Some three days thereafter I went with the same group of people to Sijekovac [Bosnia]. Before we set off, Enes Havic [a Muslim] and Becir Hodzic [also a Muslim] told us that we were going to abduct Serbian girls. We came to Sijekovac in a van and Havic’s car. Once there, we started from the “Zidic” store and the bus station in direction of Derventa raiding houses. A number of girls, i.e. younger women, were raped in the houses in which they were found and, as far as I remember, 28 Serbian women were kidnapped and taken to Slavonski Brod [Croatia] in the van.
I was the first to break into a house with Enes Havic, Becir Hodzic and Sead Mujcin (Aga), where we found a man and a woman (both about 50 years old) and their 23-year-old daughter. First, we tied her father and mother and then began to rape their daughter. I was the first to rape her, assisted by Becir Hodzic and Enes Havic. After me, she was raped by the other three and we raped her mother too. Thereafter, I cut her mother’s throat and Enes Havic did the same to her father.
We took the girl to the van. Becir Hodzic drove the girl off while we continued raiding other houses. When Hodzic came back and rejoined the group, he told us that the van was crowded and that the girls had been driven to Slavonski Brod. When the van came back again, my group abducted six or seven more girls who, too, were driven to Slavonski Brod. I do not know their names or the families they belong to. Where we found the girls’ parents or relatives, we tied and left them in their homes. I do not know if and how many relatives of the abducted girls the people from other groups killed. When the action was completed, Becir Hodzic told us that the girls were taken to Slavonski Brod [Croatia] and placed in the brothels to cater for the needs of the Croatian army…
AGAIN WHAT THE MUSLIM CONFESSED TOO YET THERE’S NOT A HINT OF THIS REPORTED IN THE MAINSTREAM WHICH IS COVERING FOR THE BOSNIAKS AND CROATS AND WHOMEVER THEIR TOOLS ARE – the aim was to divide Yugoslavia into ethnically pure or occupied statelets, the easier to control and absorb into Europe, and to set up and expand NATO/U.S. bases and hegemony. Serbs being the largest and most ethnically cohesive ethnic group were in the way of the new-to-be “independent” statelets – so their population had to be attacked and cleansed and they were covertly then overtly aided by Germany, U.S., Britain, etc.
“First, we tied her father and mother and then began to rape their daughter. I was the first to rape her, assisted by Becir Hodzic and Enes Havic. After me, she was raped by the other three and we raped her mother too. Thereafter, I cut her mother’s throat and Enes Havic did the same to her father.”
This was typically of what the Muslims did WHERE SERB FORCES DIDN’T OPERATE. Shows you clearly that the Serb army/forces were needed for survival and defense of Serbs or the greedy, cold Bosniaks and Croats were going to have Bosnia and Croatia all to themselves. And actually the Croats got what they wanted. “Multiethnicity” was a lie by the west. It support ZEALOT Alija Izetbegovic with a long history as an anti-Serb radical Muslim.
Don’t forget it was Muslim Munib Suljic who killed the Serbian Croat girl Aleksandra Zec. He was also noted to enjoy torturing Croatian Serb civilian prisoners.
Munib Suljic, that EVIL EVIL Muslim, died in great pain from cancer a few years ago.
He was a member of Tomislav Mercep’s death squads in Croats. Tomislav Mercep who was free until very recently.
Read some parts from his voluntary confession (and note that he is walking around free and is not mentioned in the mainstream press so that the SHEEPLE know nothing of these THOUSANDS of brutal crimes against Serbs.):
http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral45.html
My name is Miro Bajramovic and I am directly responsible for the death of 86 people. I go to bed with this thought, and – if I sleep at all – I wake up with the same thought. I killed 72 people with my own hands, among them nine were women. We made no distinction, asked no questions; they were “Chetniks” [Serbs] and our enemies.
…It was enough to be a Serb in Gospic to mean that you did not exist anymore. Our unit liquidated some 90 to 100 people in less than a month there.
…The order for Gospic was to perform “ethnic cleansing”, so we killed directors of post offices and hospitals, a restaurant owner and many other Serbs. Executions were performed by shooting at point blank range since we did not have much time. I repeat, orders from the headquarters were to reduce the percentage of Serbs in Gospic.
…We kept prisoners in the school cellar; and when we had more prisoners, we would put them in classrooms. Nights were the worst for them, since it was then that we “interrogated them” …; this consisted of finding the best way to inflict the greatest pain in order to make them confess the most amount of information.
Do you know which is the best way? Burning prisoner with a flame, pour vinegar over their wounds, mostly on genitalia and on the eyes. Then there is that little inductor, field phone, you plug a Serb onto that; it is a direct current which cannot kill, but it is very irritating. You ask him where he comes from, he says from Dvor, and you then dial a number in that place. Or, a five-wire cable would be stuck into a prisoner’s rectum and was left there for hours so that they couldn’t sit.
Wounds were opened and salt or vinegar scattered over them; we did not let the bleeding stop. The prison commander Mijo Jolic forced them to learn on the same day the Croatian anthem…
T. Mercep was commander of Poljane, I was the subcommander. Mercep knew everything…He told us several times: “Tonight you have to clean all these shits.” This meant that all prisoners should be executed. If you did not carry out everything that was ordered, then they said that you were a traitor. We killed both Serbs and Croats in Pakracka Poljana. The village was echoing with screams. People heard cries and whines coming from prisons but were afraid to tell us anything. Everybody knew that if they asked anything at all, they would end up in prison.
Who were these Croats? Well, the most beautiful one was Marina Nuic. Then Aleksandar Antic…Then there was Ilija Horvat, whose only sin was to invite both Croats and Serbs into his home. Then there was an Italian, because there is an Italian village in the vicinity of Poljana. And this Italian, like all Italians, was corrupt. We arrested him and killed him without any discussion. I personally killed him…
It is difficult to say how long we held prisoners. This depended on how long it took us to wear them out. In most cases we held them 4-5 days before we killed them. If they had survived, they would not have been normal. Serbs, who were good and loyal served us by digging graves, we told them that they were digging covers for machine guns. Once, one of the prisoners from Kutina said that this was the 15th or 16th cover that he was digging. He was executed on the spot. It wasn’t up to him to count but to dig.
After us there were others who called themselves “mercepovci”, who stole from the houses and then burnt them. These were Maeralo and Rukavina … Mercep told us to take everything away from the Serbs, and the money we found should be handed over to Headquarters for purchasing arms. However, Trusic, Mercep, and Rukavina, who was called Pop and Nedeljko Posavec, divided the money amongst themselves…
I could not say that mass executions were carried out in Pakracka Poljana. These were mostly groups of 7 to 10 people. It actually depended on how many people were in the prison at the time. Sometimes we executed people in their homes, and then blew up the house. There were no bodies left. There were many houses like this, mostly in the village of Bujavica…
According to my estimate, there were 280 people all together killed in Poljana, including 10 women. Besides Marina Nuic, there was a Nada from the village of Kusonja who was infiltrated among us. There was a very old lady also in whose house they found a sniper. Besides this old lady, all women were raped and then killed. That’s the truth.
It is my firm belief that if it hadn’t been for the Zec family, nothing would have been known about Pakracka Poljana. It was the main key and the main reason why the unit has been looked at from this angle, and there were many Pakracka Poljanas in Croatia.
Even if we assume the stories ida has come up here – and which I hear for the first time – are true, the fact remains that the agression against Croats, Serbs and Kosovars was planned and staged from Belgrade, the Serbs killed in one hour alone more Bosniaks than the Bosniaks killed Serbs in the whole 4 years of war, and that they had a premeditated plan to create Greater Serbia by killing and expelling the Bosniaks. (800 cases you say? Well, there are about 80.000 accounted Bosniak victims and probably many more, and about 50.000 Bosniak women and girls, some just 11 years old, were brutally raped.) They only prove that among the Croats and Bosniaks there are sadists thugs too, as in virtually all nationalities and societies of the Earth, but they do not prove that the Bosniaks are a nation of savages, barbarians and murderers, nor that they started the war nor that they had conspired and planned to commit genocide against the Serbs. Ida, if the Bosniaks had been as heavily armed and well-organized as you say then kindly tell me why they didn’t then march all the way to Belgrade and put half its population to the sword. If they had only done half of what you accuse them of today, they would now have all of Bosnia and the Sandzak united and some more too, and Kosovska Mitrovica would be the border town between Bosniaks and Kosovars; since this is not the case but the Bosniaks are isolated on only about 30% of Bosnia, then I think the Western reports, plus what I saw and heard of testimonies from Bosniaks are correct and true. If the Croats really had “the largest explosives factory” then it must have done them a fat lot of good, for what has kept them from crushing the Bosniaks utterly? And if Sarajevo had really been ethnically cleansed of non-Muslims what do you make of Eastern Bosnia which had 48% Bosniaks before the war and now has less than 8%?!? (All the Sarajevo Serbs who left just settled in their own “Istocno Sarajevo” a few blocks down the road.) Why is it that all the Orthodox and Catholic churches in Sarajevo and in Tuzla haven’t received as much as a scratch in 4 years of war, yet the mosques in Foca and Banja Luka and all other Serb-held places were all destroyed? How can Bosniaks who are Muslims embark on a crusade, is your brain so addled, you’re beyond help already, I can only hope for the Serbs’ sake that less and less of them think like you do, for as I have said I do not wish to share this Earth with the likes of you. Yes, the Bosniaks were armed, because they took the guns away from Serb soldiers they killed in battle. They said “they have guns and we have guts.” I have already listed the six points of Serbofascist propaganda. No need of you to bore me with them any longer. Or is it your new strategy to try and bore me to death?
The truth about the Bosnian war has been reported a long time since. All the serbofascists pathetic efforts to reverse the guilt (f. ex. the persecution of Ejup Ganic and Ilija Jurisic – and the Serbs already had Ilija Jurisic and had to let him go, well, what gives?) have failed and will continue to fail. And all that sadist stories you tell: That is exactly what Serbs did to Bosniaks. No Bosniak I know would do such sick things. Up to now I have never heard those stories, and not because evil Western media and generally the whole world is anti-Serb. And even if they are true: 1) These are isolated incidents, there weren’t general orders to commit murder and rape given to Bosniak soldiers, as opposed to those on the Serb side, which had organized extermination camps and a standing order to commit genocide against Muslims. Your own Karadzic said “These people will disappear from the Earth!” That was meant in earnest it was not as you would put it, “just symbolic talk”. 2) There never was and there is no premeditated plan on part of the Bosniaks to exterminate the serbs, that’s just another debunked Serbofascist propaganda lie! 3) Never did the Bosniaks round up thousands of Serb and slaughter them as the Serbs did at Srebrenica, and that the Bosniaks killed 3000 Serbs around Srebrenica is another unfounded and unsubstantiated Serb propaganda lie and attempt to whitewash themselves.
I do not wish to battle you from the keyboard any longer. That’s just a waste of energy and time. Let those who still play with fire gather another STORM, it will be a real one next time, not just a soft warm summer breeze like last time, and if there is anything I can contribute to it I will gladly do it.
And another thing: the serbofascists always tell us balije to “get a life and no longer look to the past” , Then I tell you to get a life.
And you say “the aim was to divide Yugoslavia into ethnically pure or occupied statelets, the easier to control and absorb into Europe, and to set up and expand NATO/U.S. bases and hegemony. ” Ha ha ha, you whose side has created an ethnically pure statelet in Bosnia say that and pretend not to see the contradiction and hipocrisy in your own words!!! All Serbofascists are like that. In fact I believe you do see the contradiction but think me stupid enough not to notice. So you insult my intelligence. You insult me. But you will not answer that, you’ll just ignore it and like a broken gramophone you just blab on and on and on only the same old tired serbofascist lies and half-truths. That is why it is a waste of time to try and fight you with words. You people only understand one language, that of “striking” arguments. Again, I hope for the sake of the Serb people that more and more of them will, like Sonja Biserko, Nenad Canak and Cedomir Jovanovic, distance themselves from the “Gorski Vijenac”-Ilija Garasanin-Draza Mihajlovic-Dobrica Cosic-Radovan Karadzic nationalism, or refuse themselves to it as General Jovan Divjak and those Bosnian Serbs who stood by their Bosniak friends did. And since you have admitted that you aren’t serb, do you even know what I’m talking about; or are you a complete ignoramus here? I say the idea of committing genocide against non-Serbs in all lands Serbia claims for itself goes back to the early 19th century. It is high time it was stamped out, extricated from the serb psyche and idiosincrasy, and all those who stand for it must be rendered harmless, by all and any means. I believe that Man is good by nature, no one is born evil. Who becomes evil does so of his own free will and choice, and for the sake of those who do not, must be removed from among their mid.
To you and those of your ilk, us balije, us “Muslim dogs” are the eternal enemy, as George Orwell put it, the face that is there to be eternally stamped by the jackboot; and that’s just because we exist.
And do you know something, Madam ‘Srbija, Srbija über alles, über alles in der Welt’? We intend to keep on staying! We intend to go on existing in Bosnia! Croatia already had to acknowledge that Bosnia and the Bosniaks exist; Serbia will eventually have no other option but to realize that too, and only then will there be peace in the region. “Ima i bice Bosna i Bosnjaka u njoj! Bili su prije vas, i ako Bog da, bice i poslije vas!”
Long live United Bosnia-Herzegovina and all those who stand for her!
With greetings from the “Muslim dog”!
The sources I quote and people I name are in non-Serb documentation too. There stories are often in Croatian independent press – such as Miro Bajramovic and also in the testimony of UN officials at the Hague. BUT YOU ONLY GO WITH THE HYPED MAINSTREAM PROPAGANDA which has suppressed and ignored what happened to Serbs.
Explain how come the Croatian census shows a drop from 12.2% to 4.5% Serbs in Croatia – THERE’S ethnic cleansing.
And Bosnian Muslims refuse to do an official census but the population count has the Bosnian Muslims and equal or greater percentage as they WERE BEFORE THE WAR.
And if Serbs were such a killing machine explain why the Bosnian Muslim percentage is so high and ALL THE BOSNIAN MUSLIM immigrants DON’T SHOW SIGN OF TORTURE TO BACK ALL THEIR STORIES.
Okay and WHERE ARE ALL THE RAPE BABIES. They don’t exist outside of the propaganda.
THERE IS NO DNA EVIDENCE TO BACK YOUR RAPE TALES. The stories were FRAUDULENT.
There was NO INCREASE IN BIRTH RATE IN BOSNIA and they don’t have ANY HARD EVIDENCE.
As for why the Bosnian army didn’t invade Serbs it’s because despite having the largest infantry WITHIN BOSNIA they couldn’t take a country several million larger.
WITHIN SERBIA there were a lot more soldiers and military – SERBIA HELD BACK WHAT IT COULD HAVE DONE IN BOSNIA AND CROATIA.
They could have sent in a half million soldiers – instead the YUGOSLAV ARMY WITHDREW! It was not an invasion.
Native Bosnian Serbs WERE FIGHTING FOR THEIR OWN HOMES AND LIFE.
Also explain about Naser Oric and the 28th brigade in Bosnia and just how HUGE they were and why the UN was protecting A MILITARY BASE.
Your Naser Oric – along with other Muslim army who carried out a scorched earth policy on Serb villages ALL AROUND SREBRENICA are alive and living in Tuzla, Sarajevo and in other countries if they were “genocided”.
You know it was the son a Srebrenica soldier, Suleman Talovic (sp?) who committed the Utah (U.S.) mall massacre around Valentine’s Day in 2007. And though the boy died in the shootout, his father is still alive as well as the boy’s uncles who were soldiers from Srebrenica.
So many of the so-called ‘genocided’ Srebrenica men are alive and living settled in the U.S. in places such as St. Louis Missouri.
None of your women and children show the least sign of torture and I’ll bet you are without a scratch and no such “rape baby” among all your relatives. The rape propaganda was just words without SUBSTANCE.
Liars!
Here’s a bit from western press – a RARE expose of what the Bosnian Muslims were actually doing – I suppose the usual editors were on vacation that day to allow reports of Bosnian Muslim crimes:
http://www.srebrenica-report.com/Oric.htm
Weapons, Cash and Chaos Lend Clout
to Srebrenica’s Tough Guy
By John Pomfret,
Washington Post Foreign Service
The Washington Post, February 16, 1994
SREBRENICA, Bosnia: Nasir Oric’s war trophies don’t line the wall of his comfortable apartment– one of the few with electricity in this besieged Muslim enclave stuck in the forbidding mountains of eastern Bosnia. They’re on a videocassette tape: burned Serb houses and headless Serb men, their bodies crumpled in a pathetic heap.
“We had to use cold weapons that night,” Oric explains as scenes of dead men sliced by knives roll over his 21-inch Sony. “This is the house of a Serb named Ratso,” he offers as the camera cuts to a burned-out ruin. “He killed two of my men, so we torched it. Tough luck.”
Reclining on an overstuffed couch, clothed head to toe in camouflage fatigues, a U.S. Army patch proudly displayed over his heart, Oric gives the impression of a lion in his den. For sure, the Muslim commander is the toughest guy in this town, which the U.N. Security Council has declared a protected “safe area.”
Perhaps the time for toughness in Bosnia is nearing an end. The problem, though, is that hundreds of men like Oric who still want to fight dominate all three sides in this 22-month-old war. Nobody controls them; they have access to plenty of weapons and lead many young men. And, if anything, Balkan tradition is on their side…
Here is what David Mladinov wrote in 1999 regarding interviews with some Bosnian Muslim refugees freshly arrived to Boston. David Mladinov is Jewish and escaped Croatia/Yugoslavia as a boy in WWII.
The Bosnian Muslims had been in Croat-run camps. David notes that the Jewish people at the center were confused hearing about Croat-run camps because the media only propagandized against Serbs and the Jewish American groups were responsible for pushing a lot of the anti-Serb lies.
The Muslim refugees admitted to murders of Serbs with their Croat allies and THEY WEREN’T THE LEAST REMORSEFUL.
It was Capljina where your Muslims and Croats genocide the Serb population.
David Mladinov of Boston is a named source and he further accuses the director of the center of covering up for those Bosnian Muslim refugee murders by keeping the tapes of their stories locked up. These are serious accusations yet the Jewish center and Sheila Decter don’t bother to bring up or fight against them. An innocent person would clear their names. They are guilty.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mimagazin/message/96
Six years ago, at the height of the conflict in Bosnia, Ms. Decter asked me to
translate testimonies given by a group of Bosnian Muslim prisoners that were brought to Boston (Allston) the previous day. They gave a
harrowing account about being kept for months in a dark underground military tunnel in Hercegovina. The detainees described the torture
and killings they witnessed, and talked about their transfer to the island of Badia and their consequent release to the USA. When they
asked me to translate, the American Jewish Congress was not aware that the prisoners were not held in Serbian but in a Croatian detention
camp. When did the Serbs put them in prison? the AJC representative repeatedly asked me. They were in a Croatian camp, I kept
repeating. They were tortured by the Croats not Serbs. This came to them as a complete surprise. To make the situation more ironic, the
former Muslim prisoners described in detail how at the beginning of the conflict, they, together with the Croatians from the area,
ethnically cleansed and killed all the Serbs from the town of Chaplina and the surrounding villages. They showed no remorse for their
actions, but told me the story embittered by the betrayal of their former Croatian allies. The American Jewish Congress office in Boston
never released the tapes, that are probably still in their possession.
Furthermore in regards to your talking about the Krajina Serbs leaving under orders, you failed to mention what happened to the Serbs there who didn’t escape – namely a lot of elderly and sick/bedridden.
They were murdered by Croats. The UN reports from October mentioned that they were still finding several freshly killed decapitated elderly Serb men, but that this was actually a significant decline.
So in August and September there were more than ‘just’ several decapitated elderly Serb men being found by the UN per week.
As well the Croats burned all Serb homes down to the ground, poisoned wells, slaughtered livestock, planted mines – all things which are ethnic cleansing and keep people from returning to their homes.
Yeah, yeah, so what shoud us balije do now, pack up our things and move to Turkey or to Saudi Arabia, forget about Bosnia, and before that kneel down before any Serb we see and kiss his as feet to apologize for 500 years of Turkish oppression, collaboration with the Nazi and ustase, with the Titoists, and generally being a plague and a nuisance to Serbs? Right? It will never happen!
Your ridiculous propaganda lie that there were only Serb victims and that the Serbs never wronged the Bosniaks in the slightest are pathetic in view of irrefutable evidence to the contrary. I could explain to you there aren’t 50.000 rape babies for the simple reason that some were aborted and others given up for adoption, and that in most cases the victims remain silent out of shame (I’d like you to experience what these Bosniak women went through just so that you will stop bad-mouthing them and instead show them at least a modicum of sympathy!); that there are of course photographs of Bosniak prisoners showing clear signs of torture, that not al Bosnioaks who emigrated had the misfortune of falling into Serb hands and passing through a torture and extermination camp; that the remains of thousands of Bosniaks slaughtered by the SERBS have been found and identified; that a great many Serbs have moved from “repluka srpska” to Serbia proper or to any other part of the world, so the demographic balance in Bosnia has stayed more or less the same, that a census made in the way the Serbs want it would only be misused to legitimize the results of genocide; that quite a few in the Western press and quite a few UN officials who worked there, especially those with Orthodox backgrounsd, are biased against the Bosniaks and their statements are doubtful at best – but even if that evidence hit you right in the face you’d just dismiss it as propaganda lies because according to you all suffering and victimization was on the Serbs’ side and whatever happened to Bosniaks was their own doing to incite the West’s hate of Serbs. I have known quite a few Bosniak refugees too and their stories were quite different from those you tell. You talk about torture of Bosniaks by Croats at Capljina (and for that there’ll come a day of reckoning too, don’t you doubt it) – and completely ignore Omarska, Keraterm, Trnopolje, Batkovic and hundreds of others. Maybe you believe these were just “transit camps”, like your idol Radovan Karadzic says. And of course you ignore that it was anti-Bosniak biased Lord Owen who promised the Croats a chunk of Bosnia and thus made them stab the Bosniaks in the back; hoping that the Bosniaks would not be able to stand a two-front fight and surrender unconditionally real fast – it backfired like all the other evil little anti-Bosniak schemes before and after. Some Serbofascist commenter in B92 even brags about how “We got the stupid Croats to fight the Muslims for us!” A fat lot of good it has done the Serbs (and the Croats).
An American Jewish organization conspiring against those who pursue and want to destroy Muslims? Don’t give me that! Waah waah waah! Poor angelical Serbs, even the Jews are against them! Besides that, how does anything the Croats did to Bosniaks at Capljina (and you forgotto mention Dretelj or Gabela) make undone what the Serbs did at Omarska and Trnopolje and hundreds of other places? The serbofascists always say: “All right, my side committed crimes, but so did the others, so we are no more evil or guilty as them; and besides that we did it as revenge for historic wrongs our people suffered and are therefore in the right. Wherever there are Serbs is Serbia and none other have any business being there. We just protect our people and our land. ” You see, people with such a mindset strike me as especially evil and stupid.
And what disgusts me most is your constant dismissing the organized mass rape of Bosniak women and the ethnic cleansing of Bosniaks from Eastern Bosnia as “Fraud”! But the Serb genocidal crusade against Bosniaks is a crime of such a magnitude that it can’t be concealed. Its evidence stands. No matter how many serbofascists try so often to deny it. Denial is the last and most important stage of genocide. A side that needs to deny so vehemently what the whole world knows or – from adding 2+2 suspects – must have something very ugly to hide and tons of skeletons in their closets – or better said the Bosnian soil indeed. How dare you call the victims of the anti-Bosniak genocide liars and frauds! I challenge you to call the survivors of the rape camps frauds and liars to their face and I’d love to see you try because then they would surely tear you limb from limb.
If a majority of Serbs still believes “Your” version and refuses to admit the truth, like the Germans had to admit the truth about what the Nazis did after 1945, then there is regrettably no more to be said. As I said before, it is a waste of time and energy to try and reason with you and those of your ilk. The Bosiaks have tried it with the Dodo ever since he came to power. You refuse to listen to reason, and your evil will only be gone when you are gone, and maybe not even then. It is not a matter of if but of when the present unclear situation will have to be clarified and one clear winning side established as it was in 1918 and in 1945. And us balije are not going down in silence. As for what the Croats did to the Krajina Serbs who didn’t get away in time: 1) I haven’t said they “left under orders”: Their “heroic” army did, and yes, they were ordered. 2) Acts of violence and terror against civilians was exactly of the same nature and for teh same motives the Czech did to the Sudeten Germans, and nobody objected to that. Not that I think it was right but as I have heard: “There is no justification for such acts! – Oh yes, there is: when you are on the winning side!”; and quite a few have turned a blind eye on the Serbs’ war crimes in Bosnia, but they couldn’t stop the truth of coming out. 2) The Croats weren’t told by the Bosniaks to do this, they wouldn’t have accepted any request let alone an order from them anyway, so it is useless and unfair to blame us balije for what happened to the Krajina Serbs. 3) As I said before: Who sows the wind will reap the storm. Go on like this and just wait for the next one. And 4) it was MILOSEVIC who started all the wars in the former Yugoslavia after 1991! With the enthusiastic approval of a considerable proportion of the Serb society and the wholehearted approval of the Serb Orthodox Church! If one side is guilty of starting and leading four genocidal, fratricidal wars in less than one decade it is the SERB Side!!!! Njegos, Ilija Garasanin, Ivo Andric, Vojislav Seselj and Dobrica Cosic postulated the genocidal anti-Serb crusade, Milosevic and Radovan Karadzic conspired to do it, Biljana Plavsic and Momcilo Krajisnik among others planned it, Nikola Koljevic, Risto Dzogo and Petko Cancar justified it, Ratko Mladic and the officer corps of the JNA commanded it, hundreds of thousands of willing executioners from Bosnia or from Serbia proper like Arkan and Milan Lukic and Milan Kovacevic carried it out and did the bloody work. Of that there can be no doubt! No matter whatteh response of teh Bosniaks may have been (to fight with the courage of despair!) Any Krajina or Bosnian Serb who supported Milosevic or Karadzic or the traditional Greater Serb chauvinism and was killed for it does not deserve my sympathy! And your side LOST IN THE BARGAIN! They did not succeed in erasing the balije and siptari from the map!!! We will make sure that NEVER AGAIN genocide is committed against the Bosnian side, whatever it takes! With all and any means!
As long as Ratko Mladic is allowed to go free: shut up about Naser Oric or any other Bosniak officer!
Somebody who so wholeheartedly supports the genocide commited against us balije can NEVER BE MY FRIEND and must suffer the fate he intends for me and my brethren IN HIS OWN FLESH and his own house, just as Karadzic said that MY side would disappear from the face of the Earth. That’s what he wanted to do, he said so publicly, openly, explicitly, exactly like Hitler said repeatedly (in 1939 and 1943) that he’d destroy the Jewish race in Europe, and you ignore that completely, instead you whine on and on and on about the poor Krajina Serbs as if they had been the only ones who suffered and as if the life of one of them was worth that of thousands of Bosniaks! You are already beyond good and evil; if ever I come across somebody who thinks like that and talks like that I will not hesitate one second to
I think that it is useless to discuss with “ida” aynd those of her ilk, because they don’t read what we post but only blab “their own version” of the Bosian war and cherry pick from the truth what best suits Greater Serb and Anti-Muslim interests. Same as quite a few of the Serb leaders do on the ground. Fortunately not all of them do. Whether this will suffice I can’t say.
It can’t be denied that it was Milosevic who made use of the Njegos-Ilija Garasanin-Ivo Andric-Draza Mihajlovic-Dobrica Cosic-Vojislav Seselj-Radovan Karadzic Greater Serb chauvinism, racism and fascism for his own profit and that with the approval of a large part of the Serb society and people and the wholeheatred support of the Serb Orthodox church started the four wars of the dissolution of Yugoslavia, and not some “USA-German-Vatican-Islamist anti-Serb conspiracy”. Can anybody think up a more absurd and implausible scheme? That he and his cronies managed to hoodwink the West into believeing that he was the only source of stability in the Balkans and must therefore be accommodatesd, especially at the expense of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And then, since the Bosniaks would not agreee to any partition plan, which would only have left them in the same or even a worse situation the Palestinians are in, would indeed have turned them into the Palestinians of Europe, a people without a land, so then the West’s representative Lord Owen (who never was a friend of Bosniaks anyway, quite the contrary) and the Serbs managed to hoodwink the “Stupid Croats”, as one Serb commenter recently said, to stab the Bosniaks in the back. In the end despite great destruction and many victims on the Bosniak side (who else, of course?) this evil little scheme backfired, the Bosniaks proved to be stronger and so the West forced them to agree to the Federacija (when they could easily have let them throw the ustashe into the Adriatic). By late 1995 (alas, too late to save the people of Srebrenica, but at least a much worse genocide at Bihac was prevented) both the Bosniaks and Croats finally got sort of together, and then they could have routed the forces of Mladic and Karadzic as easily as in the “Storm”. Alas, to accommodate and appease Milosevic and the Russians, the Western powers would have nothing of it and red-flagged the Bosniak-Croat offensive when it was already “ad portas” of Banja Luka. And that monstrous blunder goes on and on and on because those who are responsible for it will never admit that here they made a graet mistake. Yes, Dayton armistice ended the fighting; But what else? It gave the aggressor all he wanted, and the aggressor continues to sabotage the Bosnian state because he wants its dissolution, NOT the other way round as they always say! And they love it that they can continue to make life miserable for the Bosniaks! And stuff their pockets and tell their people that it’s all the Bosniaks’ fault! All this is not only unjust and unfair, it STINKS! It only goes to show that the mighty ion this world have always only felt contempt and disdain for the man in the street.
Still I am convinced that the man in the street, if they started talking to each other they would realize that there is more that they have in common than they think. That they all will realize that the “others” aeren’t subhuman creatures, they aren’t going away, so that they must find a way to coexist. However, that does not mean ethnic cleansing and expulsion must be legalized. Also, it can’t be that one side feels superior over the others or outvotes them. The state can be organized along non-ethnic principles, checks and balances to prevent any ethnic outvoting can be built in, and the communities of villages can be given a large degree of autonomy -BUT NOT IN THE CHAOTIC FORM OF TODAY! It can’t be allowed that local leaders act like feudal lords! This is all possible and can be done, but it is not, not because the people do not want it, but because all the fascist toadies who would lose their privileges and their enrichment schemes do all they can to instill fear and hate in the people and set them up against each other! It is at any rate possible to build Bosnia as a normal state. As for the war crimes. the local courts are understaffed , underpaid and underorganized. Here the United Nations could very well make up for their past blunders and incompetence , by funding and staffing the war crimes courts – but they must never have a say in them, they have already done enough damage. Instead, let them also concentrate on repairing the cultural damage. Besides that, a Truth and Reconciliation Commission is needed as that of South Africa. And all Western Balkan countries must be made to sign a comprehensive peace treaty which expressly forbids all countries to claim territories or populations of their neighbors, to interfere in their internal affairs, and to use military means against each other. Of course all stupid serbofascists will dismiss this as “vapid talks for reconciliation” because they still believe that someday somehow they will get their Greater Serbia and that there will be no more balije nor siptari around. Like in “Forgive my enemies? But I don’t have any enemies. I shot the lot!” For such people ther can be no mercy and no quarter.
And Ida, you don’t need to present the Serb side as the only victim. With that you only suceed in destroying what little credibility and sympathy it still has, because you and those of your ilk present all wrong that was done to Serbs not out of a wish for genuine reconciliation, but to destroy the Bosniaks. It is a fact that the Serb side had planned the aggression agaisnt the Bosniaks beforehand, and had Izetbegovic submitted to them just as Ibrahim Rugova tried to oppose the Serbs with peaceful means, or liek the Dalai Lama does with the Chinese (winning much international sympathy, sure, but on the ground – nothing!) then the chetniks would only have killed manay many more Bosniask and the Bosniaks would today be a people without a land. What Izetbegovic did for Bosniaks can only be compared to what Nelson Mandela did for his people! Whatever Bosniaks did to Serb civilians during the war 1) there was no systematic premeditated rape of Serb women nor rape camps. Any such incidents were random and unorganized acts, NOT as on the Serb side. 2) The Bosniaks only managed to kill as many Serbs during the whole four years of war as the Serbs killed at Srebrenica alone in under one hour. Nowhere did the Bosniaks round up hundreds or thousands of Serbs and slaughter them methodically and logistically organized. No Bosnioak leader ever said of the Bosnian Serbs, as Radovan Karadzic said of the Bosniaks “They will disappear from this Earth!” 3) The Bosniaks were, and still are locked in from all sides, NOT the Serbs. 4.) But they are still here, and they intend to remain, and they will never renounce the right to settle and live as they like in any place of their homeland, no matter who else might be there, for with what right does any side claim a territory for them alone; you say “Bosniaks don’t own Bosnia alone” Well, neither do you.
Unfortunately , there are still Serbs and their friends abroad around who believe the Bosniaks must be brought to their knees and they feel vindicated in this climate of Islamophobic hysteria. They still believe Bosniaks are morally, culturally and physically inferior, untermenschen, vermin, since they are Muslims, and must therefore be done away with, and all their cultural landmarks and signs of their very existane as well. They must be taught a lesson that neither they nor their descendants 1000 years hence will ever forget. They must be made to experience the total and utter failure of their evil ideas. If this can be done through example and good neighborly relations, then it’s all right. But if they want violence they should get it back. With interests.
Well, I can only say that it will not be like 1992-95 again. Because the circumstances are not the same. The twerps who keep spouting revisionist andt-Bosnia and anti-Bosniak hate speech have long since been refuted and the mythology of Serb victimization and entitlement have been disproved long since; see Marko Attila Hoare and Daniel Toljaga (who is a survivor and direct witness of the Srebrenica Genocide) who, as opposed to the revisionist Greater Serb propagandists provide credible evidence and sources for ther statements. Sure, there have been Serb victims too, nevertheless it is immoral to equalize teh victim of aggression withthe aggressor or to brand the victim as the criminal. Bosnia did not attack Serbia, and Serbs started murdering Bosniaks long before the officially recorded beginning of the war. Some of those serbofascist anti-Muslims may wish for a rematch to “complete the job” or because they feel offended that the Bosnias are still there and that the pathetic attempt to wipe the Bosniaks, their cultural heritage and their country off the map, or to smear them as the real culprits (they had Ilija Jurisic and had to let him go!) has failed; I would strongly advise them not to plunge their people into misery again. And what’s more important, a recent Gallup poll among Bosnians of all three ethnic backgrounds shows thet about 60% are ready to trust “the others.” There are a few Bosnian Serb politicians who have nothing against cooperating with their Bosniak counterparts; let us hope there will soon be more.
Since the Bosnian War was so terrible and devastating, just like the Thirty Years’ War was for Germany (and until WWII there never was such a degree of devastation and cruelty in Germany again) maybe it has the same cathartic effect on Bosnians, that nobody in his right mind will wish for, nor create the political conditions that would lead to a rematch. However, the Bosniaks as the most aggravated party will surely not knuckle under.
As always, when it comes to issues regarding the Balkans there is a lot of selective memory being elicited here. The problem with the internet is that anyone can say anything without any accountability. First, Croatia never, I repeat NEVER, revoked the civil liberties of any nation or people. This just didn’t happen. Croatia did change the status of Serbs within Croatia from a “nation” to a national minority. Today, Serbia’s minorities are called “national minorities” so it seems this model had at least some appeal to Serbs since they adopted it. Second, the Serbian population in Croatia was the result of Ottoman ethnic cleansing. Serbs settled in the areas of Croatia which bordered Ottoman rule in part because Serbia was under Ottoman control… a control which lasted 500 years. Serbs were given the right to live on the land and taxation relief in exchange for military service but the Austro-Hungarian millitary government never gave them autonomy or governance. This is key. Serbs were refugees in Croatia, not settlers and never rulers. Now it is true that serbs were the only republic not seeking to leave Yugoslavia. This speaks to the position Serbs enjoyed in Yugoslavia and the undesserved priveleges they had that the remaining peoples of Yugoslavia resented. It’s like when all of your friends consider you a jerk and they leave you alone… guess what, it’s clearly not them -you’re a jerk. It must be stated that Croatia and Slovenia sought decentralization of Yugoslavian government not independence. This is in the transcripts of the final (14th) Yugoslavian communist congress. However, Croatia and Slovenia were within their constitutional rights to leave, as republics and as stipulated in the preamble of the constitution. Serbia signed and ratified this constitution and agreed to be bound by it. In fact, Serbia’s argument against Kosovo independence was that Kosovo was not a republic of Yugoslavia.. Nonetheless, one can not ignore the fact that Croatia and Slovenia were the economic powerhouses of Yugoslavia. This gave them a reason to resent the Belgrade government and unfair transfer payments. This was the main reason to demand more autonomy. To simply make a blanket statement and say it was “nationalism” ignores this very important issue – namely money! Money, like always, underlies politics. Nationalism was only part of it, Slovenian, Bosnian, Macedonian, Croatian, Montenegrin, Albanian nationalist sentiments were reactionary anti-Serbian sentiment and primarily a response to the Serbian Academy of Arts and Science memorandum (SANU) of 1986. This was the trigger. This was the start of Serbian ultra-nationalism but is conveniently forgotten about by Serbs; Serbs accepted this as dogma and it set in motion the events of the 90′s. Anyone who conveniently ignores this fundamental moment in the rise of Balkan nationalism is either plain foolish or just bein academically dishonest. Let us not forget that this memorandum pre-dated any multi-party elections in Slovenia or Croatia by 5 years! Also, let us not forget that Milosevic was in power and fanning the flames of nationalism 6 years before the election of Tudman!! The election of a Croatian nationalist government therefore must be considered reactionary at least in part. Finally, to justify all Serbian war crimes by citing the crimes of the Ustashe is just cowardly. Let us not forget the victims of the Cetniks and the dead in Bleiburg. Let us not forget the Croatians that died fighting the fascists as Partisans. There are so many reasons that Serbia is seen as the aggressors of the Balkan wars! This is the motiviation behind Serbia trying to repair its image abroad. Today a Serb won’t tell you these things, A Croat, Slovene, Hungarian, Albanian, Bosnian, Montenegrin, Macedonian… well anyone who lived in Yugoslavia will tell you these things though… And that’s just it Serbia, you are the jerk- and the rest of Yugoslavia left you.. not the other way around.
First and foremost – northern part of Serbia is Belgrade, and generally all other places placed on the southern banks of Danube and Sava river.
Since most people from the “northern parts” still prefer calling themselves – Voyvodinians.
Autonomous Region and Province rather different from Serbia proper.
Historically, culturally, economically and politically.
Voyvodina is the last, unresolved issue in the process of Yugoslav disintegration.
Economically, politically and demografically ravaged, ruined – even cleansed from their historical minorities – more and more Voyvodinians nowadays tend to distance themselves from Serbia; specially their politics.
So, it wouldn’t be of a great surprise if Voyvodina separate itself from Serbia proper – sooner rather than latter.
Finally returning to their historical European cradle.
Where Voyvodina was established and raised as one of the most developed agrocultural regions in Europe, at the beginning of the XX century.
So we could be at the very bottom, together with Serbia – only century later.
With the GNP even bellow national average.
And, as English say – “Nothing is over, till the fat lady sings”
Same thing rules for Voyvodina as well.
titojazz
another revisionist.Appropriate that you picked to use a rabidly anti Serbian name.He was the one who started it all.His mantra was “a weak Serbia strong yugoslavia”which is why he didnt allow hundreds of thousands of Serbs to return to their homes in Kosovo after WW2.
As to the question of Serb right in croatia.They were relegated to national minority from having been a “constituant nation”.Streets were renamed after former ustashe,ustase symbals reappeared,Serbs en mass were fired from their jobs and then the beatings ,vandalism and shootings started to occur.Serbians were never refugees in croatia in the 15 century as croatia was never a country(legally) until recently.We had more rights under austo -hungary than the croatians and this is what started the jealousy against Serbs.
Nobody cared if croats or slovenes seperated but there was no clear boundaries and repaymeny to yugoslavia of monies owed.If the croats had a right to succeed then so had the serbs in Krajina .
As to your assertion that croati and slovenia were the economic powerhouses if you could offer some proof please.
The war started along time ago with germany instigating problems in the 60′s ,however yugoslavias demise was brought about in this manner ‘the Reagan administration had targeted the Yugoslav economy in a `Secret Sensitive’ 1984 National Security Decision Directive (NSDD 133) entitled `United States Policy towards Yugoslavia’. A censored version of this document declassified in 1990 largely conformed to a previous National Security Decision Directive (NSDD 54) on Eastern Europe issued in 1982. Its objectives included `expanded efforts to promote a “quiet revolution” to overthrow Communist governments and parties… while reintegrating the countries of Eastern Europe into the orbit of the World market’ (Gervasi, 1992).
So please dont be such a simpleton to say Serbian nationals were pushing for a greater Serbia.Yes if republics were going to seperate especially ones that had previously attempted genocide against Serbians ,then yes they had to be protected.As for milosevic “fanning flames how, and dont refer to his Kosovo speach because you obviously havnt read it.
Yes these were some croats with the partizans but for the majority they faught alongside the nazis as attested to by the fact that you were part of the axis.The ones that were killed at bleiburg were mostly ustashe that were fleeing the communists.They were turned back by the brits.The royalst chetniks were the legitimate army of Yugoslavia and were the first”organized resistance” against the nazis.That is why Draza was featured on the cover of time magazine and books about his heroism are still written today (The Forgotten 500)
as to who started the war heres some quotes tudgman “Thank god my wife is neither a Serb nor a Jew”
“in which way do we resolve it?This is the subject of our discusion today.We have to inflict such blows that the Serbs will to all practical purposes disappear”
Izetbegovic quotes “It is not in fact possible for there to be any peace or coexistence between ‘the Islamic Religion’ and non-Islamic social and political institutions.”
“The implementation of Islam in all fields of individuals’ personal lives, in family and in society, by renewal of the Islamic religious thought and creating a uniform Muslim community from Morocco to Indonesia. …”
“”… In perspective, there is but one way out in sight: creation and gathering of a new intelligence which thinks and feels along Islamic lines. This intelligence would then raise the flag of the Islamic order and together with the Muslim masses embark into action to implement this order. …”
Who was the last president of yugoslavia……Stipe mesic blame him
The war in Yugoslavia is one of the last acts of the not-so-cold war to reclaim “communism” for capitalism, so that capitalism can re-colonise the former Eastern bloc and attempt to overcome its internal crisis and long-term decline. To this end, political power and military might were used to stage an imperialist war against the rump of the former Yugoslavia to break it up and divide the Balkans into new client states of imperialism. ……….Fikret Abdic{Bosnian Ataturk}was and is popular, arguably the most popular Muslim leader; he got the most votes in the 1990 Bosnian elections. And that was the problem because he was allied with the Bosnian Serbs. He supported the concept of Yugoslavia – a multiethnic state.Abdic and tens of thousands of followers set up the Autonomous Region of Western Bosnia, an area with a very strong partisan and anti-fascist tradition stemming from the W.W.II struggle against Nazi occupation and Croatian Ustasha terror. He fought on the Serbian side in Bosnia.After his military defeat in the region of Cazinska Krajina and Velika Kladusha at the hands of the 5th Corps. of the ARBiH [Alija Izetbegovic's Islamist army], more than 50,000 Muslims loyal to Abdic – some put the figure at 80,000 – moved into the neighboring Republic of Serbian Krajina (RSK-Croatia ) to seek refuge.This fact proved that the propaganda claiming that the war was rooted in an unbridgable gap between Serbs and Muslims was false, but that its roots lied somewhere else.Serbs had historic accords not only with Fikret Abdic [a Bosnian muslim politician] but also with the MBO [Muslim Bosniak Organisation] party led by Adil Zulfakupasic……….
In the last Bosnian presidential election, in 1990, Abdic won the most votes. But he let Alija Izetbegovic head the collective presidency. As far back as 1983, Izetbegovic had been jailed by the government of Yugoslavia for inciting Muslims against non-Muslims in Bosnia. Alija Izetbegovic, who had been released early from jail in 1988 (serving only six years of a 14 year sentence for pro-Islamic anti-state activities), visited Islamic fundamentalist states in the Middle East, returning to Bosnia-Herzegovina to found the SDA (Muslim Party of Democratic Action). His 1970 manifesto, “Islamic Declaration”, advocating the spread of radical pan-Islamism-politicised Islam-throughout the world, by force if necessary, was reissued in Sarajevo at this time. His Islamic Declaration is imbued with intolerance towards Western religion, culture and economic systems. This is also the theme projected in his book, Islam between East and West, first published in the US in 1984, and in Serbo-Croat in 1988, shortly after he was released from prison in the former Yugoslavia. In his writings he states that Islam cannot co-exist with other religions in the same nation other than a short-term expediency measure. In the longer term, as and when Muslims become strong enough in any country, then they must seize power and form a truly Islamic state.In February 1991 he declared in the Assembly: “I would sacrifice peace for a sovereign Bosnia-Herzegovina, but for that peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina I would not sacrifice sovereignty.” To the Serbs this was a war cry. In March 1992, a peaceful solution for Bosnia finally seemed to be within reach. All three Bosnian leaders (Alija Izetbegovic/Muslim, Radovan Karadzic/Serb and Mate Boban/Croat) signed the so-called Lisbon Agreement, which proposed ethnic power-sharing on all administrative levels and the delegation of central government to local ethnic communities. However Izetbegovic withdrew his signature only ten days later, after having met with the U.S. ambassador to Yugoslavia, Warren Zimmermann.A few weeks later, war broke out…….. This much is known: Several thousand foreign mujahedin from the wider Islamic world fought on the Bosnian Army’s side during the 1992-1995 war, and Al Qaeda was closely involved in their transport and activities there.But Bosnia wasn’t a jihad, right? And all those charges of ‘mujahedin’ presence were just vicious serbianationalist propaganda, right?In fact, Bosnia and Kosovo weren’t jihads only in the eyes of the West.The hidden “Islamic jihad” in Bosnia was covered up because this suited the needs of interested parties and it was not productive to show America, Alija Izetbegovic, Al-Qa’ida, the global jihadist network, and other nations, working hand in hand. Therefore, the “Muslim victim card” was played and the same applies to re-writing history. The Serbians, who had been the victims of Islamic jihad under the Ottomans and then suffered so brutally under the Ustasha/Nazi/Islamic collaboration during World War Two, were once more victims, just like they had been under the Habsburg Empire, because during the 1990s it is clear that the mass media sided with all anti-Serbian forces. This applies to supporting Croatia, the Muslims of Bosnia, and the Albanian Muslims of Kosovo.
The world belongs to Allah:Qur’an: 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”